Date: 21-07-18  Time: 16:39 PM

Author Topic: New battery  (Read 906 times)

bigfootpete

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New battery
« on: 16 April 2018, 03:47:26 PM »
Just got a new Lithium battery, as I was sick of the AGM ones failing after a year.

I thought they had sent me an empty box it's so light! See attached pic.

Even holding it, it feels like the bottom section is empty.

Let's hope this one keeps its charge.

b1k3rdude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #1 on: 16 April 2018, 05:36:00 PM »
From what I had read on this very subject (because I was going to go down that route), the battery will not charge correctly in any bike without a correct type of charging circuit. All contemporary bikes like the FZS have charging system designed for Lead acid. I would be very very wary and get more info from yamaha and/or the battery manufacturer before putting that anywhere near your bike.

Some info i found online - https://www.quora.com/What-should-be-considered-if-I-want-to-replace-the-lead-acid-battery-for-the-e-bikes-with-a-lithium-one
  • For the battery, get LiFePO4 (a.k.a LFP). The benefit of getting LFP is, it's a drop in replacement. The voltage profile is very much similar with your old lead acid, so no need to concern about voltage compatibility.
  • For the charger, IF you want to re-use your old charger, make absolutely sure your old charger maximum voltage does not exceed 14V per battery (I don't know how many batteries in series for your old system. So, if it's 24V system, make sure the charger don't exceed 28V). This is probably the hardest criteria to meet, so very likely you'll need to buy a new charger specific for your LFP.
  • Don't discharge your LFP completely. Unlike lead acid, you need to monitor your usage and stop using it when it's close to 'empty'. I myself use V2 Cycle Analyst Info Page to monitor my usage.
  • Size. How much size tolerance can you accept in your battery frame? The new battery will be slightly off (not much) compared to your old battery. Since LFP will be lighter than your lead acid, no other concern here (you won't be missing the extra weight right?).
More info - https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/lifepo4-drop-in-replacement-batteries.169429/

Quote
These companies know next to nothing about LiFePO4 and are simply taking cheap Chinese LFP batteries, slapping stickers on them and reselling them to unsuspecting buyers who believe the pure rubbish that it is safe to charge a LiFePO4 battery at 14.6V or regular lead acid levels.. Why? Because these companies have not a clue about interpreting the Chinglish instructions on the battery to begin with. They need engineers on their staff who actually understand LFP and not just a room full of marketers trying to interpret Chinglish.


More info -

LiFePO4 Limitations: • Higher cost - return on investment is primarily based on long-term deployment.
• HAZ-MAT transport - can only be transported under restricted conditions (set by D.O.T.).
• Less resistant to shock and vibration - so not suited to being on a motorcycle then?
• Requires additional power management devices for integration into traditional applications.
• Relatively young technology - will not operate at full potential using available COTS lead-acid chargers & power management appliances. Many associated charging/management technologies are more expensive, further driving up the cost to operate. I wasn't able to find any know brand (Yuasa, Varta, Duracell,) selling these in the UK/USA/Europe.
« Last Edit: 16 April 2018, 05:49:14 PM by b1k3rdude »

bigfootpete

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Re: New battery
« Reply #2 on: 16 April 2018, 06:52:52 PM »
Hmmm, have alternators on bikes changed that much?
I'm checking with a mate who has built his own electric bike and will let you know what he thinks.

old son

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Re: New battery
« Reply #3 on: 17 April 2018, 06:47:57 AM »
Don't understand why a battery should fail after a year. My bike is13 years old and I am on my 2nd battery!!

tommyardin

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Re: New battery
« Reply #4 on: 17 April 2018, 08:35:17 AM »
Just got a new Lithium battery, as I was sick of the AGM ones failing after a year.

I thought they had sent me an empty box it's so light! See attached pic.

Even holding it, it feels like the bottom section is empty.

Let's hope this one keeps its charge.


Is it Japanese?  Because the letter 'T' in Japanese looks like an English 'D'  :rollin :rollin
I spent half my life getting drunk and chasing pussy, the other half I just wasted.

b1k3rdude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #5 on: 17 April 2018, 01:08:37 PM »
Hmmm, have alternators on bikes changed that much?
I'm checking with a mate who has built his own electric bike and will let you know what he thinks.
Your not seeing the larger issue fella, Lithium batteries typically need an intelligent charging system (Charging Algorithm that monitors and analyses), in simple terms - 

1. The charging system will start supplying constant current.
2. then it will then ramp down the current and switch to constant voltage mode.

Now LiPo4 might be different and the following link suggests it should be possible use these as drop in replacements with caveats -

https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-charging-systems-use-lithium-batteries

Spoke to yamaha Uk and there is one bike on their roster that has a Lithium battery the yz450f, but this also comes with a separate external charger that is required if the battery voltage drop below a certain amount and enters sleep mode. You have to remove the battery, use the aforementioned charger before putting it back on the bike.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2018, 01:09:13 PM by b1k3rdude »

bigfootpete

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Re: New battery
« Reply #6 on: 17 April 2018, 01:27:00 PM »
Heard back from my battery mad friend, he wasn't 100% sure about lithium batteries.

But he did say that they should not be overcharged or left to go flat. He also said that the bike will not check what voltage the battery is at so will just charge while you ride it until you stop.
So sounds like the possibility to overcharge will always be present... :(

Dudeofrude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #7 on: 17 April 2018, 04:00:05 PM »
Personally my biggest concern with lithium batteries is their tendency to explode when pierced, not a great thing to have in something as delicate as a motorbike in my opinion. It's the same problem all these fancy new electric cars are going to have, catch them wrong in an accident and it's gonna look like a Hollywood car crash.
I know the chances any kind hitting them under your seat it quite minimal but it's still a risk

b1k3rdude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #8 on: 17 April 2018, 09:00:14 PM »
  • Heard back from my battery mad friend, he wasn't 100% sure about lithium batteries.
  • But he did say that they should not be overcharged or left to go flat.
  • He also said that the bike will not check what voltage the battery is at so will just charge while you ride it until you stop.
  • So sounds like the possibility to overcharge will always be present... :(

  • If the battery were a normal Lithium-Polymer (LiPo) like you get in phones, I would be 100% against. But its a different type Lithium iron Phosphate (LiFePho4) so I still think more online research and talking to reputable companies based in the UK maybe usefull.
  • Yup,  as I read from the link I posted above.
  • Yer, thats the biggest issue - hence my suggestion of finding a way to interface between the old skewl charging system on the bike and the battery with an intelligent one - assuming that can be done.
  • yes and no, a lot of this LiFePo4 batteries have over-current and over-voltage protection built it (see here), we just need more information.
Regarding the portability of such batteries in a motorcycle, the battery in the above link see - (IEC 6213 & UN 38), how ever these are not British or European certifications.

Moving on, did a search on youtupe for come LiPo to LiFePho4 comparisons -

- http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lithium+iron+phosphate+vs+lithium+ion

b1k3rdude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #9 on: 17 April 2018, 09:06:23 PM »
Something else I have noticed about the battery yu bought, LiFePho4 has way more energy capacity in the same phyiscal space as a LeadAcid, so I think your getting short changed. That battery should be more than the 14Ah, at a guess something like 20Ah -

And while going through the list of Yt vids from the link I posted above I found one saying what I have been saying, you can not drop a LiFePho4 battery into a bike with a charging circuit design for LeadAcid -

-


bigfootpete

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Re: New battery
« Reply #10 on: 17 April 2018, 09:45:08 PM »
Something else I have noticed about the battery yu bought, LiFePho4 has way more energy capacity in the same phyiscal space as a LeadAcid, so I think your getting short changed. That battery should be more than the 14Ah, at a guess something like 20Ah -

And while going through the list of Yt vids from the link I posted above I found one saying what I have been saying, you can not drop a LiFePho4 battery into a bike with a charging circuit design for LeadAcid -

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7odOzf2Q0X4


Thanks for the links, I'll do a bit more research to see what I can find out.
You'd think the website selling these would have more info rather than just lumping these in with all the other lead acid ones saying it's a direct replacement.

b1k3rdude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #11 on: 17 April 2018, 09:48:59 PM »
Thanks for the links, I'll do a bit more research to see what I can find out. You'd think the website selling these would have more info rather than just lumping these in with all the other lead acid ones saying it's a direct replacement.

Yeah thats the problem, you will find that these sites have bought them in from China and as ive read else where rely on the "Chinglish" instruction that come with them.

Some more info about charging LiPo and LiFePo4 batteries on motorcycles -

- http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=18&chapter=1
  • One of my questions got answered which was how will the batter be charged on the bike as you ride without getting damaged, and that is that reputable battery have an inbuilt Battery managment system (BMS). If it dosen't have this then you will haver to remove the battery often and charge on a mains charger, but even if it does have a BMS you will have to periodically remove the battery and charge off the external charger to balance the cells - if yours does NOT have a BMS then send it back RIGHT now for a full refund.
But 2 issues that we as Uk rider will face are cold weather cranking (the battery has to be warmed/woken up) and LiPo and LiFePho4 do not like parasitic discharge (alarms), so as these batteries costs £100 or more compared to the £40-50 of the motobatt I currently have that will last a few years... I don't see the point atm in these types of batteries.

bigfootpete

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Re: New battery
« Reply #12 on: 17 April 2018, 10:01:15 PM »
Thanks for the links, I'll do a bit more research to see what I can find out. You'd think the website selling these would have more info rather than just lumping these in with all the other lead acid ones saying it's a direct replacement.

Yeah thats the problem, you will find that these sites have bought them in from China and as ive read else where rely on the "Chinglish" instruction that come with them.

Some more info about charging LiPo and LiFePo4 batteries on motorcycles -

- http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=18&chapter=1
  • One of my questions got answered which was how will the batter be charged on the bike as you ride without getting damaged, and that is that reputable battery have an inbuilt Battery managment system (BMS). If it dosen't have this then you will haver to remove the battery often and charge on a mains charger, but even if it does have a BMS you will have to periodically remove the battery and charge off the external charger to balance the cells - if yours does NOT have a BMS then send it back RIGHT now for a full refund.
But 2 issues that we as Uk rider will face are cold weather cranking (the battery has to be warmed/woken up) and LiPo and LiFePho4 do not like parasitic discharge (alarms), so as these batteries costs £100 or more compared to the £40-50 of the motobatt I currently have that will last a few years... I don't see the point atm in these types of batteries.


I don't ride very often these days, so in winter the drain from the alarm flattens the battery in a week.
Even just with the immobilizer on.

I don't have any power to the garage so can't have a trickle charger attached.

I even tried disconnecting the battery but it still went flat.

Trebus

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Re: New battery
« Reply #13 on: 17 April 2018, 10:36:40 PM »
Maybe invest in one of the cheap solar chargers. I have one and they do work to keep a battery topped up.

b1k3rdude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #14 on: 19 April 2018, 10:37:36 AM »
  • I don't ride very often these days, so in winter the drain from the alarm flattens the battery in a week - even just with the immobilizer on.
  • I don't have any power to the garage so can't have a trickle charger attached.
  • I even tried disconnecting the battery but it still went flat.
  • Same here, untill I got a motobat. So far I have not been touching the Fazer a month between uses and its started every time.
  • Er atleast you have a garage, how far is it from the house..? if too far then as suggested below, get a solar charge planted on the roof.
  • Cheap leadacid will do that, that what the optimate and chargers like that are for.
« Last Edit: 21 April 2018, 03:02:24 PM by b1k3rdude »

ptolemyx

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Re: New battery
« Reply #15 on: 22 April 2018, 07:48:43 AM »
My research has led me to the conclusion that you can use a Lithium battery in an ordinany modern motorcycle. That's why I've got Lithium on my Fazer, Hayabusa and B-King all without any problems. Provided your regulator is in good condition, i.e. max charging voltage 14.4v, you will not overcharge the Lithium battery. Get a Lithium battery charger though and fully charge the battery before installation and only use it again if the battery voltage gets below 12v on the bike, which should only happen if you've got poorly fitted electrical accessories, BTW the fully charged voltage of a Lithium battery is 13.2v. The only caveat to this is a Lithium battery voltage will drop quicker than lead-acid if you have starting problems and need to crank the starter for longer than normal.
when in doubt go flat out

b1k3rdude

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Re: New battery
« Reply #16 on: 22 April 2018, 04:25:32 PM »
  • My research has led me to the conclusion that you can use a Lithium battery in an ordinany modern motorcycle. That's why I've got Lithium on my Fazer, Hayabusa and B-King all without any problems. Provided your regulator is in good condition, i.e. max charging voltage 14.4v
  • Get a Lithium battery charger though and fully charge the battery before installation and only use it again if the battery voltage gets below 12v on the bike,
  • which should only happen if you've got poorly fitted electrical accessories,
  • BTW the fully charged voltage of a Lithium battery is 13.2v. The only caveat to this is a Lithium battery voltage will drop quicker than lead-acid if you have starting problems and need to crank the starter for longer than normal.
  • Which make/model of battery have you fitted to those bikes, does said battery have a built in BMS (Battery management system)
  • These chargers like the batteries aint cheap.
  • in what context, what do you mean by poorly fitted. Fyi any pro fitted alarm, in standby mode will do this. And said situation is made worse for riders whoe dont have a garage or a nearby power source.
  • I would say no, a lot of vid's of riders doing comparisons have show the lithium will turn over the engine for longer before the voltage drops than a lead acid.

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Re: New battery
« Reply #17 on: 24 April 2018, 06:01:34 PM »
 For a variety of reasons, I’ve not had much use out of my bike the last few years, and I don’t tend to ride in winter.


I think my current battery is about 4 years old and still OK.  I think it’s a Yuasa gel pack type.  It sits in the bike over winter (no alarm or immobiliser) and I take it out and give it a charge 30 or 40 mins on a basic cheapo Draper charger every other month. 



I think your immobilizer is probably killing your battery.  You could measure the current drain using a basic multi-meter.


But if you ain’t using the bike over winter, take the battery out and just give it a charge now and again and you should get a good few years’ service out of it.  If you don’t give it a wee charge now and again, even sitting on the bench it will eventually go flat.