Date: 28-03-24  Time: 23:30 pm

Author Topic: 15w oil in front end  (Read 14417 times)

Disorderlypunk

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15w oil in front end
« on: 15 March 2018, 10:24:05 pm »
ok so after searching the forum today some old posts talk about using 15w oil in the front end for a better feel
HOWEVER
no one seems to say what they have settings at for preload, compression, rebound
anyone out there using the 15w oil with altered settings (mcn settings go out the window with thicker oil)
forget town riding as i will live with whatever it is - i want it set for when i ride hard and fast so anything as a starting point on settings will be an improvement to its current state (oil change is needed so will do it as soon as oil is here)

celticbiker

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #1 on: 16 March 2018, 06:42:03 am »
What type and weight of spring do you have in?
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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #2 on: 16 March 2018, 09:04:32 am »
ok so after searching the forum today some old posts talk about using 15w oil in the front end for a better feel
HOWEVER
no one seems to say what they have settings at for preload, compression, rebound
anyone out there using the 15w oil with altered settings (mcn settings go out the window with thicker oil)
forget town riding as i will live with whatever it is - i want it set for when i ride hard and fast so anything as a starting point on settings will be an improvement to its current state (oil change is needed so will do it as soon as oil is here)


Hello Punk,
Assuming your talking about your FSZ 600, there is very little you can do to adjust anything on the standard FZS 600 damper rod forks as they leave the factory, without major surgery.
The compression is a combination of spring and the oil and the rebound the same.
The speed of compression and the rebound are controlled by the thickness of the oil squirting though a 5 mm hole in the base of the damper rods, thicker oil ......   blah blah blah, you know the score.


The pre-load adjuster on the top of the later models stanchions make very little difference with the standard (Dual rate) springs in, as they are harsh when compression reaches the spring rate change and rebound rapid at first because of the same but slows a little when it reaches the lighter/softer part of the spring.


People say that the standard FZS Fazer 600 springs are progressive but in fact they are dual rate, there is a definite step/change in the spring coils, progressives would change spring rate slowly over its total length, hence progressive. The dual rate springs crash your wrists and jar you when compression reaches that point and also make the bikes handling a little unpredictable when riding around bumpy corners if you hit fast bumps because of that change in the spring rate both on compression and rebound.
True progressives would give you a smooth transition.
Thicker oil in damper rod forks can cause something like hydro lock under certain situations, IE: The oil can not pass quick enough through that 5 mm hole in the damper rods and effectively cause the forks to go solid/seize.


Some one told me, and I have mentioned it in here before so sorry for repeating myself, it is like a child's water pistol if you squeeze the trigger very very softly the water will dribble out of the nozzle, if you pull the trigger at a normal sort of speed the water will squirt out and travel some distance, if the yank the trigger in it will lock/jam the trigger because the water can not pass through the nozzle quick enough, a form of hydro lock, the same principle applies to damper rod forks hit a fast/sharp bump on a fast bend and the forks can stiffen up, worse case scenario lock up.


The picture in this post i have posted before when this sort of topic come up and i make no apologies for posting it again as it shows that the original Yamaha spring on right is not a true progressive spring, to the left of the Yammy spring is an Ohlins linear spring. Chalk and cheese when riding.


To be honest that is the way I would recommend anyone go, do the fork cartridge emulators if you have the finances, time and ability, but they are the extra bit of icing on the cake, the linear springs are the cake and 50% or more of the icing. And it such any easy job to do, the forks stay in the bike, just make sure the front wheel is off the ground (Centre stand with wooden blocking up under the down pipes) just slacken the top yoke pinch allen bolts a tad, make sure the pre-load adjusters are completely unwound then undo the top yoke 17mm cap nuts, go steady, a cloth over the top of the cap nut will help if the cap pops off when its undone, top disk washer out, spacer out hook the old spring out with a bit of wire coat hanger, reverse the procedure and the job is done, honestly its a couple of hours work at the very very most, and if you ever do it again it will take you half the time.
once its all done you can then change the oil.
If you are around 12 to 14 stone fully togged up to ride try 15 weight proper fork oil, I used Silkolene fork oil, but any will do.


Oh! one thing I did not mention the old fork oil will smell like rotten fish and be dark pearlecent in colour.      :eek :rolleyes
« Last Edit: 16 March 2018, 09:07:47 am by tommyardin »

darrsi

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #3 on: 16 March 2018, 09:21:31 am »
NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?


The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.


15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.
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Disorderlypunk

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #4 on: 16 March 2018, 10:07:43 am »
im not going the emulator route as the future plans are to go usd in the future (if i ever get round to the rebuild)
will fire the 15w in and see how she handles, if its a bit too firm i can easily revert back to 10w
cheers guys

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #5 on: 16 March 2018, 10:25:25 am »



NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?


The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.


15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.



That is probably because you have the correct viscosity oil in them, or do not ride hard.

I agree totally the pre-load adjuster a  next to useless.

Can you not see though if you have a fluid that is to thick to pass through a certain size hole quick enough when being forced it will slow the compression down to the point of locking, especially if more force is added rapidly as in hitting a fast bump on fork compression, it ain't rocket science.

Do a search on the internet about Hydro Lock how and why it happens, it can happen inside an internal combustion engine just the same, where hyrdo lock can occur in high compression engines, it can bend con rods and fuck engines.

It's Ok that some don't know about it, as it usually does not effect people, but that does not mean it does not happen or exist, ask the poor sod with the bent conrods and/or knackered crankshaft, or the poor foccer that came off his motorbike when cornering hard because because something weird happened to his front end when he hit a bump, it's un-explainable I just don't know what happened.

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #6 on: 16 March 2018, 10:32:04 am »
On that note I am going to shut the fuck up.


All I am/was trying to do was to be helpful and offer some advice and thoughts on a phenomena that can and does happen, now if you think it's a crock of shit fine.
Good luck to all who are trying to understand and improve their suspension on a budget bike with Damper Rod forks.


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Disorderlypunk

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #7 on: 16 March 2018, 10:37:00 am »
On that note I am going to shut the fuck up.


All I am/was trying to do was to be helpful and offer some advice and thoughts on a phenomena that can and does happen, now if you think it's a crock of shit fine.
Good luck to all who are trying to understand and improve their suspension on a budget bike with Damper Rod forks.


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dont worry tommy we are listening and thankfully i know what hydrolock is from the classic car race engines we have had to rebuild

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #8 on: 16 March 2018, 02:15:20 pm »



NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?


The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.


15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.



That is probably because you have the correct viscosity oil in them, or do not ride hard.

I agree totally the pre-load adjuster a  next to useless.

Can you not see though if you have a fluid that is to thick to pass through a certain size hole quick enough when being forced it will slow the compression down to the point of locking, especially if more force is added rapidly as in hitting a fast bump on fork compression, it ain't rocket science.

Do a search on the internet about Hydro Lock how and why it happens, it can happen inside an internal combustion engine just the same, where hyrdo lock can occur in high compression engines, it can bend con rods and fuck engines.

It's Ok that some don't know about it, as it usually does not effect people, but that does not mean it does not happen or exist, ask the poor sod with the bent conrods and/or knackered crankshaft, or the poor foccer that came off his motorbike when cornering hard because because something weird happened to his front end when he hit a bump, it's un-explainable I just don't know what happened.


Keep your hair on, i said i have never ever heard of it happening, i didn't say it had never happened to me, which it hasn't either by the way.  :lol
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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #9 on: 16 March 2018, 09:31:56 pm »
Actually I am as bald as a coot so the retaining of my hair follicles does not come into the equation.


Using CAPITAL LETTERS in text indicates that someone is shouting which often means that someone passionately disagrees with something that is done or said.
If one passionately disagrees with something that has been said it seems to me you are either saying they are wrong or saying they are mistaken or worse case scenario calling them a liar.

Oh! Hang on I am not bald I still have my crash helmet on.

:finger Darrsi   :finger

darrsi

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #10 on: 16 March 2018, 09:55:57 pm »
Actually I am as bald as a coot so the retaining of my hair follicles does not come into the equation.


Using CAPITAL LETTERS in text indicates that someone is shouting which often means that someone passionately disagrees with something that is done or said.
If one passionately disagrees with something that has been said it seems to me you are either saying they are wrong or saying they are mistaken or worse case scenario calling them a liar.

Oh! Hang on I am not bald I still have my crash helmet on.

:finger Darrsi   :finger


Trust me, i ain't known for shouting, my hearing is way too sensitive to even contemplate it.


Dunno why you're getting your knickers (don't wanna know) in a twist, or getting textually aggressive?
Just giving my honest opinion!  :lol
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Disorderlypunk

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #11 on: 16 March 2018, 10:25:43 pm »
SOMETIMES ITS BECAUSE I HIT THE caps lock AND DONT REALISE UNTILL I HAD ALREADY WRITTEN EVERYTHING !!!!!!  :lol :lol
« Last Edit: 16 March 2018, 10:41:42 pm by Disorderlypunk »

tommyardin

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #12 on: 16 March 2018, 10:55:26 pm »
STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF
« Last Edit: 16 March 2018, 10:56:07 pm by tommyardin »

tommyardin

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #13 on: 16 March 2018, 11:03:44 pm »
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.


But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words.  :lol

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #14 on: 16 March 2018, 11:05:26 pm »
STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF


I can hear you talking from here, no need to have such colourful language  :lol
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Disorderlypunk

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #15 on: 16 March 2018, 11:06:12 pm »
STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF


i am now at least in my honest opinion lol

darrsi

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #16 on: 16 March 2018, 11:06:44 pm »
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.


But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words.  :lol


Meeee....pedantic....no way?  :lol
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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #17 on: 16 March 2018, 11:16:15 pm »
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.


But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words.  :lol


In my defence, i've never been dishonest on this site because in my eyes that would be unnecessary and just wrong!
Here to "try" and help, i generally won't overstep my knowledge, but will have a laugh in the process.
Due to the age of my bike, buying it in a state, and spending time, money and patience i've got to learn lots myself over the years. Call it self taught if you wish.
I listen too, honest, i'm a learned type of person, i have to be, my job is hectic and technical.


Tommy, if i've somehow offended you AGAIN, it wasn't on purpose, HONESTLY.  ;)
« Last Edit: 16 March 2018, 11:17:35 pm by darrsi »
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tommyardin

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #18 on: 17 March 2018, 12:31:46 am »
FFS Darrsi you will have me weeping in my beer if you go all lovey dovey on me. I would sooner you just carried on acting like a cnut. LOL  :eek 

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #19 on: 17 March 2018, 12:57:12 am »
Bit rude of me, sorry about that, but 

darrsi

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #20 on: 17 March 2018, 08:38:55 am »
Bit rude of me, sorry about that, but


That's cool, straight talking i can deal with  :lol
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darrsi

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #21 on: 17 March 2018, 09:15:31 am »
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.


But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words.  :lol


Would you prefer a dishonest opinion though?


Technically that would give someone a free pass to say all sorts of shite.......but back it up with "Only joking."  :rollin
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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #22 on: 17 March 2018, 09:40:27 am »
Hi


Re the fork mod- you mentioned the linear rate spring would be a pretty decent improvement on the original springs- can you send a link to a suitable model of spring for this? I am 75kg in my birthday suit so probably 85kg or so loaded up with gear.


The other thing is to make sure that these springs are compatible with the YSS emulators that MandP sell so if I want to go down that route in the future then I can!


Thanks in advance!

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #23 on: 17 March 2018, 09:49:25 am »
FFS darrsi leave it mate, this could go on and on you bitch me I bitch you back and have a pop at everything each other says, and it never ends.
But I will just add, as stated earlier if it is an Opinion it is neither honest or dishonest, it can be a genuine Opinion, a firmly held Opinion, or humble Opinion, but that does not make it honest or right, but something that someone has thought through and chosen to believe, and a lot of us believe a lot of stuff that just is not true.

Under that tough exterior of yours I believe that there is a genuine kind hearted, thoughtful man.
But then I rethink the last statement above about us believing stuff that isn't true, and come to a firmly held Opinion that you are just a twat.  :eek

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Re: 15w oil in front end
« Reply #24 on: 17 March 2018, 10:04:58 am »

Hi


Re the fork mod- you mentioned the linear rate spring would be a pretty decent improvement on the original springs- can you send a link to a suitable model of spring for this? I am 75kg in my birthday suit so probably 85kg or so loaded up with gear.


The other thing is to make sure that these springs are compatible with the YSS emulators that MandP sell so if I want to go down that route in the future then I can!


Thanks in advance!


Hi Hope,
You are about the same weight as me. I went for these spring on the advice of a serial suspension modder on here. The advice was excellent.
There is also a post going on in here at the moment that might be heplfhul I will try and post a link to it. I promise I will not do to you what a mate did to me saying he was posting a link to a site that was selling Pergeot mirrors off cheaply, my Mrs was after one for her car, I like an idiot just clicked on the link he sent, Mrs sat beside me to arrive on the foulest porn site you could imagine, I now know what scat is  :eek

http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,23873.msg276875.html#msg276875




Link for Ohlins Linear springs


https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/OHLINS-Set-Front-Fork-Springs-Weight-85kg-for-Suzuki-Sv650-1999-2002/650021071?iid=273072093238&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43781%26meid%3Da220411ca5cc489ea9ebe328c2842933%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D401494115806%26itm%3D273072093238&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


Do worry that the add say Suzuki SV650 1999-2002 springs, they fit just fine.
They are in fact just a little shorter but this difference can be made up by adding a few large diameter penny washers to the top tubular spacer in the forks.
« Last Edit: 17 March 2018, 10:22:13 am by tommyardin »