Date: 28-03-24  Time: 14:31 pm

Author Topic: Overheating / New Radiator  (Read 4529 times)

Adam2201

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Overheating / New Radiator
« on: 04 February 2018, 08:24:53 pm »
Hi all,

Was riding home on the M25 yesterday when the dreaded red temperature warning light came on.  I stopped at the services and the engine was clearly hot (steaming in the pissing rain), but once it had cooled down I checked the coolant and it was up to level in both the rad and the overflow. I carried on my merry way and was ok for 10 minutes or so before I got the red light of doom again. I didn't want to risk it so I pulled over for recovery.

I need to do some proper diagnosis to try and find the problem.  The battery is currently charging from having the indicator on for hours waiting for RAC, but will get it started in daylight when I can and try to find a leak with the engine running.  Assuming I'm lucky and it is just a leak from a hose/pipe or radiator (seems that way as I can see some spots of coolant on the engine and the radiator does look a bit haggard), rather than a water pump or head gasket failure, does anyone have a link to a radiator they've bought recently that fits straight out of the box?  I saw a few posts a while ago where people had ordered replacement rads but the inlet/outlet pipes didn't line up properly on the bike.

[/size]Yamaha originals at £300.00 are out of budget unfortunately.Thanks in advance,

slappy

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #1 on: 04 February 2018, 09:53:35 pm »
Before splashing out on a new radiator I would flush the cooling system, it could be just clogged up with crap.

darrsi

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #2 on: 04 February 2018, 10:41:38 pm »
Yeah, i would start with the easy and cheap option too, go and get some Radflush and give the system a clean.
When these overheat though, or the waterways are blocked at all, the coolant normally boils in the expansion tank then dumps the excess on the floor via the outlet pipe.
Then when the bike cools down it will suck the liquid from the expansion tank into the engine, either lowering or emptying the tank, so that's a bit odd that your levels are okay, unless you haven't checked them since it cooled down.
Other reason is if you mix your own coolant with water but have an incorrect mix, too much water and it will just boil like a kettle, which is why i always prefer to use premixed bike coolant.
« Last Edit: 04 February 2018, 10:45:14 pm by darrsi »
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stet

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #3 on: 04 February 2018, 11:39:48 pm »
When your engine overheats

(1) is the rad fan rotating fast?
(2) is the whole rad getting hot?
(3) is the cooling system pressurised (you can check this by squeezing the rubber tubing)?

You could try testing or replacing the thermostat and rad cap.

Also, make sure the rad cap is seating correctly and there is no build up of crud under it.

In addition to flushing the rad internally, ensure the external rad matrix is not blocked with rust and debris.

While investigating, providing the bike ambient temperature never falls below zero degrees C, it is quite safe to use tap water for a short period, but once the system is fixed you will obviously need to fill with the recommended cooling fluid mix.
« Last Edit: 05 February 2018, 12:12:06 am by stet »

Jules-C

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #4 on: 05 February 2018, 12:29:39 pm »
Sounds like water pump has failed.  Either that or the thermostat isn't opening which would be my first check since it's quick and easy to do.  Since the levels were ok I wouldn't think it was a leak since even if a quarter of the coolant had leaked it should still circulate and cool the engine in the current temperatures. Did you check if radiator was hot, if the water isn't circulating the bottom left corner of the radiator where the pipe comes out to go to the pump will be cold

Adam2201

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #5 on: 05 February 2018, 12:59:26 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. On mobile now, hopefully this is readable!

Just to give an update. I put the battery back this morning. Checked coolant levels and still full In rad (cap looks OK visually ) and correct level in reservoir.

Fired up first time and ran it up to temperature. Not a single drop of coolant coming out, no red light today. I don't know how hot it got idling but headers were red hot.

Fan didn't come on but it never does. I tested it last year and it does work (didn't test switch).

The only sign on the garage floor was a brown mixture (like oil and water) under thermostat. But could equally be rain that dripped off a rusty exhaust. The headers are white but looks more like salt. And as the coolant is full I don't think its that (no sign of crust on rad).

Will drop and flush the coolant as a matter of course as it's been two years (used premix last time). Then will try thermostat (just boil it in a pan and check it opens, closes when cool ?). Then presumably water pump like you say - that was my first suspicion Friday. How can I tell if its buggered? I guess the leak under it would be telltale If it's there when I get back home. You can't hear it working normally can you?

Disorderlypunk

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #6 on: 05 February 2018, 02:56:45 pm »
how to test the water pump
open the drain screw and crank up the engine for a second or two
you will be able to tell the difference
« Last Edit: 05 February 2018, 02:57:45 pm by Disorderlypunk »

Jules-C

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #7 on: 05 February 2018, 03:04:35 pm »
If the coolant levels are still both full you can rule out a leak


The fan should come on before the red light but hardly ever comes on except for idling in traffic on a hot day.


Idling although headers might get hot the engine isn't producing nearly as much heat as it does when it is producing power so it can be confusing.


Brown mixture could be chain lube etc from the front sprocket cover or from anywhere under the bike if it went in garage wet.


The thermostat should start opening somewhere around 85 degrees, if you don't have a thermometer it is too hot to put finger in water but before it is boiling, when it's near boiling the thermostat should be fully open.


There should be no noise from the water pump and hard to tell if it's working but if you run the engine with the radiator cap off you should be able to see the water moving once it has warmed up enough for the thermostat to start opening.  As the bike is warming up check how hot the two sides of the radiator are once the engine has warmed up the sides of the cylinder head and the two sides of the radiator should all be much the same temperature.  if the cylinder head is getting too hot to hold your hand against but the radiator still cold it's not a good sign.

Adam2201

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #8 on: 05 February 2018, 03:39:19 pm »
Cheers guys, will have a look tonight and see what the score is

stet

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #9 on: 05 February 2018, 06:29:50 pm »

... but headers were red hot.

Did you mean that the headers were actually glowing red hot?

If so, that is a sign of a retarded spark which is odd because the FZS600 is CDI.

... Fan didn't come on but it never does. I tested it last year and it does work (didn't test switch).

The fan should rotate if the bike is overheating so there is a definite fault there. Best to investigate that further.
« Last Edit: 05 February 2018, 06:31:06 pm by stet »

Disorderlypunk

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #10 on: 05 February 2018, 08:09:45 pm »
there could be a couple of problems here not just one because its winter so you shouldnt be having overheating problems when riding
best to take a day to check a few things at once to ensure your cooling system is tip top
1, pump flow by opening the drain screw and starting engine (keep your legs clear it sprays) then top up
2, radiator clogging - just remove top hose then bottom hose and if you only get a slow drizzle then there is your problem (flush it)
3, fan switch, need an ohmeter for this one and an old pan (check the manual how to do this)

personally i think this sounds like a coolant flow issue because its winter so the fan should rarely come on - unless city commuting


if your lucky it is just an air lock and you wont find a problem it will just mysteriously be fixed once you do a coolant swap
if its a bit of a bugger then its a blockage it could be a coolant issue or it could be water type ie hard water (or both) just flush it
if your really really unlucky the impeller fans might be bust, but this is worst case rare scenario and easy to check once everything else is done

Adam2201

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #11 on: 05 February 2018, 09:39:10 pm »
Thanks again everyone. I like to work on the bike myself but I'm really short on time this week.  Even so, will work through things systematically after work to try and eliminate them as it will drive me mad if I can't find a cause and it doesn't happen again.


I just took it out for a ride to get it properly warm. It started fine, was pulling strong like normal.  There have been no leaks in the garage since this morning when I started it.


I left the bike running for 5 minutes when I got back, fan didn't come on (as normal), but I didn't get a red light or anything.  Radiator (and all corners) was hot. The pipes in the corners were not quite as hot as the fins on the side of the engine, but I couldn't keep my hands on them for long. 


The water pump itself (and hoses going to it) were hot.  When I took the cap off the radiator (turned engine off and left a few mins) I got a good hiss for the first part of opening.  I started the engine with the cap off and could immediately see loads of bubbles in the radiator.  Will do punk's check opening the drain screw with the engine on tomorrow before I drop the coolant tomorrow to see how much flow there is


Oil looks clean in the sight glass.  Coolant is bright green (was premix when I last changed it and haven't topped up with water since). I did put a few mills more of coolant in the reservoir earlier (until it poured out the funnel), and when I've opened the rad cap just now, it did piss some out of the overflow pipe, which I imagine was just because it was overly full.

The only thing I did differently to normal on Saturday was the long periods of motorway driving (I normally only commute 10 miles each way, but did 70 miles in the morning, left the bike all day in the cold, then drove home).  When I started the bike to come home on Saturday, I left it idling for 5 minutes on the side stand as I was gearing up (normally I just drive as soon as I start the engine).  It was definitely around zero degrees, and I was driving at 70 in top gear (for at least 15 minutes) when the light came on initially, I would expect the engine to be cool in those conditions.

Will try coolant change tomorrow (with pump drain check), radiator check and flush.  Whilst the coolant is drained I will pull the thermostat and the fan switch and try heating them up - I have a multimeter for the fan switch so will look at the specs in the manual.  Will also try bridging the fan to make sure it's still working.


Cheers





« Last Edit: 05 February 2018, 10:10:09 pm by Adam2201 »

tommyardin

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #12 on: 06 February 2018, 12:00:45 am »
Sounds to me like you are on it Adam  :D

stet

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #13 on: 06 February 2018, 01:14:18 am »
I'm really curious to know what is going on here!

It's not just a dicky temperature sensor or associated wiring/connections?
« Last Edit: 06 February 2018, 01:27:38 am by stet »

Adam2201

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #14 on: 06 February 2018, 07:36:07 am »
The sensor is the other possibility! I can test that at the same time as the fan switch. It was very heavy rain Saturday with a lot of spray.


The only symptom over heating was a load of steam when I parked up, the bike was riding fine. Not sure when I will get to work on it, but I will give an update!

Fazerider

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #15 on: 06 February 2018, 08:39:46 am »
The sensor is the other possibility! I can test that at the same time as the fan switch. It was very heavy rain Saturday with a lot of spray.


The only symptom over heating was a load of steam when I parked up, the bike was riding fine. Not sure when I will get to work on it, but I will give an update!
The only time the temperature warning light has come on for me is when the sensor gets wet.
In the event of coolant loss the thermostat housing is high and dry... and the temperature sensor stays too cool to switch on the warning light.
Its only use is as a rain detector. :lol
« Last Edit: 06 February 2018, 01:03:34 pm by Fazerider »

stet

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #16 on: 06 February 2018, 09:50:41 am »
... I left the bike running for 5 minutes when I got back, fan didn't come on (as normal), but I didn't get a red light or anything.  Radiator (and all corners) was hot. The pipes in the corners were not quite as hot as the fins on the side of the engine, but I couldn't keep my hands on them for long. 


The water pump itself (and hoses going to it) were hot.  When I took the cap off the radiator (turned engine off and left a few mins) I got a good hiss for the first part of opening. I started the engine with the cap off and could immediately see loads of bubbles in the radiator. ...

Did you actually see bubbles or was the cooling fluid just agitated? If bubbles, that is not good news as it points to a head gasket.

...The only symptom over heating was a load of steam when I parked up ...

Afraid this is another bad sign.
« Last Edit: 06 February 2018, 10:56:06 am by stet »

Adam2201

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #17 on: 06 February 2018, 09:56:52 am »
would be great if it is just a bit of rain in the sensor...


I saw loads of little tiny bubbles in the top of the rad when I started it, I only left it on for a few seconds as i didn't want it to spray out.  When I've had a blown HG on a car in the past, it's been a bugger to start and drive.  Also you can see the oil and coolant have mixed when you check the reservoir. Haven't got any of those symptoms so far, so fingers crossed for it being OK.  I wouldn't do a head gasket replacement myself, I've never opened an engine.




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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #18 on: 06 February 2018, 11:09:16 am »
As a precaution I would change the thermostat, they are easy enough to fit and rules out one possible source of your problem.

Disorderlypunk

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #19 on: 06 February 2018, 11:19:40 am »
As a precaution I would change the thermostat, they are easy enough to fit and rules out one possible source of your problem.
Sh*t i forgot to write that

stet

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #20 on: 06 February 2018, 11:36:54 am »
would be great if it is just a bit of rain in the sensor...


I saw loads of little tiny bubbles in the top of the rad when I started it, I only left it on for a few seconds as i didn't want it to spray out.  When I've had a blown HG on a car in the past, it's been a bugger to start and drive.  Also you can see the oil and coolant have mixed when you check the reservoir. Haven't got any of those symptoms so far, so fingers crossed for it being OK.  I wouldn't do a head gasket replacement myself, I've never opened an engine.

It was just a thought about the head gasket. You can have a slightly leaking head gasket with only minor symptoms, but a gross leak, as you say, would cause havoc.

I once drove a Granada with a leaking head gasket for a year with no symptoms, apart from a little water loss and a slight gurgling noise from the heater. But one day it let go: the engine conked and steam billowed out from under the engine bay.

You don't seem to have a gross head gasket leak and a minor leak should not cause the engine to overheat. But hot gas entering the cooling system may trigger the warning light temperature sensor.

Of course, this is all speculation and I hope it is not the head gasket!
« Last Edit: 06 February 2018, 11:40:50 am by stet »

Jules-C

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #21 on: 06 February 2018, 12:03:10 pm »
The sensor is the other possibility! I can test that at the same time as the fan switch. It was very heavy rain Saturday with a lot of spray.


The only symptom over heating was a load of steam when I parked up, the bike was riding fine. Not sure when I will get to work on it, but I will give an update!

Steam from where?  Just generally from engine because of last puddle you drove through?  With no coolant loss it's not coolant escaping.

Dodgy sensor or water getting into connection is sounding quite likely since no other problems found.  My temperature warning light has never come on despite many very wet journeys.  Is the rubber boot still on the connector on the sensor?

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #22 on: 06 February 2018, 03:23:36 pm »
As a precaution I would change the thermostat, they are easy enough to fit and rules out one possible source of your problem.
Sh*t i forgot to write that
Sorry Punk, I should have written "Disorderlypunk forgot to say: as a precaution I would change the thermostat, they are easy enough to fit and rules out one possible source of your problem"  :lol :lol :lol

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #23 on: 06 February 2018, 05:20:10 pm »

 





Oil looks clean in the sight glass.  Coolant is bright green (was premix when I last changed it and haven't topped up with water since). I did put a few mills more of coolant in the reservoir earlier (until it poured out the funnel), and when I've opened the rad cap just now, it did piss some out of the overflow pipe, which I imagine was just because it was overly full

this worries me the until it poured out the funnel the reservoir should only have a little in it between the marks at the bottom of it not full to the top can you elaborate on how full the reservoir is ?



Adam2201

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Re: Overheating / New Radiator
« Reply #24 on: 06 February 2018, 06:01:34 pm »
It seems to takes very little to go from the min line to pouring out on mine (especially if you've got a funnel in there, it's hard to judge). you can't see very well into my reservoir with it being old, so I tried adding a few ml just to be sure that what I thought was the coolant level was indeed the level.  It ended up with a bit too much in, which came out of the overflow pipe.

I didn't want to keep saying that the level was correct in the reservoir then find that I was looking at a line of old coolant dried on the inside!

Hopefully will get chance to have a good look at everything later, thanks again for all the suggestions,