Date: 23-06-18  Time: 05:02 AM

Author Topic: Cold starting  (Read 746 times)

GhostCat

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Cold starting
« on: 01 December 2017, 11:48:41 AM »
Hi my 2001 5DM Fazer is being a PITA on cold mornings.. starts for a second, then dies and won't start again until the battery is virtually flat. I can hear the pump clicking away. Maybe not giving it enough time to prime itself or something ? Once it goes it's fine.. normally starts on the button without choke - any pointers ?

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andybesy

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #1 on: 01 December 2017, 12:03:37 PM »
Does the dump continue to run for more than 10 seconds when you switch the ignition on?

I'd normally expect to hear the fuel pump operating when the ignition is first switched on - not always but when it needs it - but for it to then stop after a few seconds. At which point it should start fine.

If it's continuing to run for more than a few seconds then that may indicate a fault with the fuel supply or the pump itself.

Simple checks you can do is checking your fuel pipes aren't kinked - have you recently lifted the tank and trapped then when replacing it?

And after riding for a time when you stop to refuel is their a hissing noise indicating a vacuum on opening the fuel cap?

Of course it could also be the pump itself but check simpler things first.

Also, how old is your battery? It's exactly now when I'd expect batteries that are past it to die - it's the first proper cold snap when they actually fail.

Also check your choke cable isn't snapped and is actually moving the gubbins on the carbs. They do often seize and snap.

Just some pointers, you'll need to go through a diagnostic process but it shouldn't be too difficult to track down.

Andy

GhostCat

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #2 on: 01 December 2017, 12:27:54 PM »
Thanks I'll give that a go - always good to troubleshoot when you're not panicking that you'll end up late for work !
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darrsi

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #3 on: 01 December 2017, 03:50:07 PM »
Could have sticky bits in your carbs, I had a problem for a few months starting the bike, it was backfiring and all sorts.
After a lot of research online I thought I'd give this stuff a go and it not only sorted it out completely but it makes the engine run a damn site smoother as well.

For our size tanks I worked out a quick and easy correct measurement to be half a lid full from a 500ml aerosol can.

I used half a lid per full tank of fuel for the first 3 tanks, then I now use it once every 4 tanks full as a top up.
It lubricates the whole fuel system.

Ignore the name of it, it's been around for about 90 years so they're doing something right, or just read reviews on it. 

As mentioned though, cold does also put a strain on a battery so a booster charge would also help as well.

You can get about 16 goes out of a near litre bottle so it's hardly expensive either.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marvel-Mystery-Oil-Fuel-Oil-Additive-US-Quart-946-ml/111872395196?hash=item1a0c1d47bc:g:mCcAAOSwJoNZyGSr
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Fazerider

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #4 on: 01 December 2017, 05:23:25 PM »

Once the temperature gets close to freezing I find mine needs a bit of choke.
Are you thumbing the starter as soon as the ignition’s on or do you wait for the carbs to fill (i.e. when the pump stops running)?

daviee

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #5 on: 01 December 2017, 06:25:07 PM »
mine dont like full choke even in this climate try starting it without choke these bike are well known to run rich if its not happy try a little choke and so on till you find a sweet spot mines only gets started once a week but starts no bother but wont rev till it gets a bit of heat in it normally a couple of minutes tops then it will rev and drive no bother i just put that down to not getting used and lying all week 

darrsi

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #6 on: 01 December 2017, 06:39:51 PM »
Funnily enough my bike didn’t wanna start about an hour ago with the choke on, but did spring to life when i switched it off.
I think the cold may be taking its toll on the battery as well though so i’ll give it a boost tomorrow.
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GhostCat

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #7 on: 02 December 2017, 12:05:20 PM »
This morning I waited for the carbs to fill.. ran for 3 secs then stalled. Ignition off. Ignition on again, the pump ran for another 5-6 secs as if the carbs were empty.  Not sure if that's normal. I feel the battery is on it's way out but there's something else going on going to lift the tank up and see what's going on, but at the mo leaving and arriving home in the pitch black !

darrsi

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #8 on: 02 December 2017, 12:18:46 PM »
Obviously be careful, but try starting the bike on the centre stand with the fuel cap open and see if it keeps running better when started. And make sure your fuel tank breather pipe hasn't got blocked in any way.
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Disorderlypunk

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #9 on: 02 December 2017, 12:38:50 PM »
ok so definatly sounds fuel related start with taking the pipe off the fuel pump outlet and add a pipe to a jam/coffee jar or just hold a jar there
switch on ignition and see if fuel flows
yes fine = problem is after pump
no or slow = problem is before pump or with pump


before pump - i would look at the fuel filter first, maybe take the fuel pipe from the filter inlet and run it direct to the pump (if problem solved then its the filter so replace asap - DO NOT RUN AROUND FOR A WEEK WITHOUT A FUEL FILTER)
any idea when your filter was replaced last they are only about £8 on ebay so worth replacing anyway


-when the fuel pipe is disconnected from the filter just see what the flow is like direct from the tank if is seems a bit slow it could be a blocked prefilter but this isnt common unless you have a rusty tank - can sometime fix this by blowing up the fuel line but the problem will return so will need to empty the tank remove and give it a good flush (dont do this in winter as it will never dry again wait till summer so it can sit in the sun)


WARNING - the pipe leading from the pump to the carb remove from pump side - the plastic connection carb side is a bit brittle and can break easily - that little bit of plastic is £30, i found out the hard way


i would definatly try and get a dose of redex or preferably marvels mystery oil through the system as is can dislodge little bits that may be sticking but the chances of four float valves sticking at once is slim even in winter (i dont even have the carb heater hoses running through mine)

and darsi just posted a very good point about breather pipes - if thats the problem there are two outlets under the tank add a bit of hose and blow through them - no hose? just wrap you lips around it and blow (as i told the g/f last night) , you will know if its blocked

john 087

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #10 on: 02 December 2017, 10:42:35 PM »
did you check to see if the choke cable is working. on mine when its cold it needs just a tiny bit of choke. But discovered one cold day after running for a couple of secs it would cut out, the cable had broken

tommyardin

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #11 on: 03 December 2017, 01:18:56 AM »
The choke cablies do rust out on the FZS600 mine did, the way the cable emerges from the handlebar choke lever allows water in and then it sits in a dip in the cable under the side of the fuel tank and rots.
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limax2

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #12 on: 05 December 2017, 05:17:10 PM »
This morning I waited for the carbs to fill.. ran for 3 secs then stalled. Ignition off. Ignition on again, the pump ran for another 5-6 secs as if the carbs were empty.  Not sure if that's normal. I feel the battery is on it's way out but there's something else going on going to lift the tank up and see what's going on, but at the mo leaving and arriving home in the pitch black !
I think there is a safety cut out for the fuel pump so if the engine is not running the fuel pump cuts out after about 5 seconds or so. If the bike has been stood for several days this may not be enough to fully fill the carbs. Turning the ignition off and then on again gives it another go. When the carbs are getting full the pump usually starts to click slower before stopping. If the pump stops abruptly it could indicate the cutout has kicked in and carbs may not yet be full. I'm not saying this is your problem because when the engine was running for a few seconds the pump should have been energised, but easy to try turning the ignition off when the pump stops and then on again to see if the pump does a few more clicks before hitting the starter button.
Another possibility in cold and damp weather is carb icing. This doesn't usually stop tickover but causes cutout or very bad running when you try to pull away. The solution there is to let it warm up a bit on tick-over. There are some small bore pipes under the carbs that carry the water and are meant to prevent icing in very cold weather. These are prone to getting blocked but don't do anything anyway until there is some heat in the cooling system so I don't think these are anything to do with your particular problem.
 

darrsi

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #13 on: 05 December 2017, 09:28:49 PM »
Carb icing usually happens after the bike's been running for a while, rather than after start up.
When i first got my bike it used to go wrong in exactly the same place on the way to work, in cold but not freezing weather, just over a mile away from my house.
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Fazerider

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Re: Cold starting
« Reply #14 on: 06 December 2017, 12:28:10 AM »

That the fuel pump runs a lot is a bit puzzling. There are plenty of reasons that it would do that, but I can’t think of one that is consistent with the engine running fine once you’ve persuaded it to start. If fuel delivery is inadequate then you’d expect the engine to struggle when underway. Likewise, if the pump’s running because a carb is flooding, you’d find it running on 3 cylinders at low revs and lousy fuel economy.


As Darrsi says, carb icing isn’t likely to be the cause… it takes several minutes to build up enough ice to block the jets.


A weak spark could be the cause of the engine dying. The first thing that happens when the engine fires up is expose a cold spark plug to a lot of steam, so you get some condensation which can cause the next spark to track across the surface if it’s a bit feeble. The engine then dies and when the starter motor has turned the engine over enough to blow the dampness away, the plugs have retained a bit of warmth so the next time it fires the condensation isn’t bad enough to kill further sparks.
Trim the HT leads by 8mm and fit new NGK SD05F plug caps if that’s not already been done.