Date: 16-12-17  Time: 20:38 PM

Author Topic: U-lock or Disc lock?  (Read 1334 times)

tommyardin

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #25 on: 19 September 2017, 07:04:12 PM »
i would choose depending on location
Down London - Disc lock, harder to cut than anything else out there (wankers more likely to cut the bike next to you with a chain)
Rural Home / council estate - Chain to something Solid, (more likely to be a van theft - as you would hear a grinder in use)
if you have the money there is also the tracking option - but we have fazers so prob not worth the cost
(£179 + Fitting +£100 per year subscription for a datatool = but i have heard off some interesting alternatives in the pipeline)

im not a fan of U-locks as they are solid linked so easier to cut (bar is easier to cut than moving chain) and hard to carry
a big and bulky chain can be worn like rambos bulletbelt and disc locks can fit in a pocket

UNDER NO EXCEPTION GET A THROTTLE LOCK THEY ARE USELESS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1XKWhC_2R4



If you want to nick a bike with one of these throttle/brake locks don't cut the line as the video suggests just undoing the bleed nipple 10mm spanner will do it, save buying a new line and fitting it.
Oops should not have said that.


Disc lock on the front wheel is a great option with a bright coloured springy land-yard around the front brake or clutch lever side handle bar grip, someone once suggested a disc lock on each disc, no point you only have to remove the wheel exactly the same process as with one disc lock.


Back it up with a chain and a BIG bright coloured good quality padlock on the rear wheel if its being left for any length of time, it doesn't really have to be a super heavy duty chain because it someone is going to cut it with a 18volt battery powered disk cutter they will whether it is a 8mm link or a 15mm link, but it is a visual deterrent to the little foc pigs who want to go joy riding. Make sure the chain is of a length that it cannot be laid on the ground as it is difficult to cut a hanging chain with a hammer and chisel. Always use the steering lock.
There is no way you will stop someone nicking your pride and joy if they are determined but you can make life difficult and that will stop the opportunist thief.     
Don't mess with the guy if the guy don't mess with you.

Disorderlypunk

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #26 on: 19 September 2017, 08:13:02 PM »
bleed nipple - bloody hell i didnt think of that
- does somebody have a checkerd past lol
riding this that and the other
modifing everything...
vloggin some bits - http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvWtJO9iyS8XsR9RNHx72UQ

fazersharp

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #27 on: 19 September 2017, 10:32:54 PM »
I would never comment on the security measures here at Sharp hall other than to warn - look out for the poison blow darts and wild poisonous monkeys if you enter without first being invited   
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

Disorderlypunk

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #28 on: 19 September 2017, 10:40:06 PM »
my security measures are simple
enter my premises and a naked man bearing a baseball bat will come running out at you !!!!


- i feel shouldnt tell you where i live, otherwise you will all be on my driveway laughing with cameras
riding this that and the other
modifing everything...
vloggin some bits - http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvWtJO9iyS8XsR9RNHx72UQ

fazersharp

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #29 on: 19 September 2017, 11:05:34 PM »
my security measures are simple
enter my premises and a naked man bearing a baseball bat will come running out at you !!!!


- i feel shouldnt tell you where i live, otherwise you will all be on my driveway laughing with cameras
Should I be more scared of your nakedness or the big stiff piece of wood you are waving at me
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

Disorderlypunk

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #30 on: 20 September 2017, 12:46:41 AM »
dont forget the baseball bat now
riding this that and the other
modifing everything...
vloggin some bits - http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvWtJO9iyS8XsR9RNHx72UQ

F4celess

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #31 on: 20 September 2017, 08:43:47 AM »

...
currently making a security related video on an unbeatable alarm system - its so good even i cant disarm it with my keyfob
so the last couple of days yes i have been at home totally traceable.

Look forward to this.  8)

Slaninar

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #32 on: 21 September 2017, 04:31:49 PM »
Back it up with a chain and a BIG bright coloured good quality padlock on the rear wheel if its being left for any length of time, it doesn't really have to be a super heavy duty chain because it someone is going to cut it with a 18volt battery powered disk cutter they will whether it is a 8mm link or a 15mm link, but it is a visual deterrent to the little foc pigs who want to go joy riding. Make sure the chain is of a length that it cannot be laid on the ground as it is difficult to cut a hanging chain with a hammer and chisel. Always use the steering lock.
There is no way you will stop someone nicking your pride and joy if they are determined but you can make life difficult and that will stop the opportunist thief.   

In my knowledge and experience, there is a difference between an 8 and a 15 mm thick link. There is also difference between well hardened steel and cheaper, softer one.

The main breaking point, so to say, is about 12 mm of well hardened steel. From that thickness, it is very hard to cut it with tools that fit under one's jacket to stay invisible. Also, that is the thickness that requires more than a few seconds with a battery run angle grinder - so there will be more noise and light from all the grinding sparks (English term?  :/  ).

No useable system is 100% hack proof, but the goal is to make it more work and more risk for the thieves than the other bikes.

Of course, a garage is much better - out of sight, at least in my country.

Another good thing is being nice to the elderly. Those people NEVER sleep :)  and will always let you konw if they saw someone suspicios, or call you (or the police) if they hear some break&enter noise.


« Last Edit: 21 September 2017, 04:32:22 PM by Slaninar »

celticdog

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #33 on: 21 September 2017, 11:58:09 PM »
Back it up with a chain and a BIG bright coloured good quality padlock on the rear wheel if its being left for any length of time, it doesn't really have to be a super heavy duty chain because it someone is going to cut it with a 18volt battery powered disk cutter they will whether it is a 8mm link or a 15mm link, but it is a visual deterrent to the little foc pigs who want to go joy riding. Make sure the chain is of a length that it cannot be laid on the ground as it is difficult to cut a hanging chain with a hammer and chisel. Always use the steering lock.
There is no way you will stop someone nicking your pride and joy if they are determined but you can make life difficult and that will stop the opportunist thief.   

In my knowledge and experience, there is a difference between an 8 and a 15 mm thick link. There is also difference between well hardened steel and cheaper, softer one.

The main breaking point, so to say, is about 12 mm of well hardened steel. From that thickness, it is very hard to cut it with tools that fit under one's jacket to stay invisible. Also, that is the thickness that requires more than a few seconds with a battery run angle grinder - so there will be more noise and light from all the grinding sparks (English term?  :/  ).

No useable system is 100% hack proof, but the goal is to make it more work and more risk for the thieves than the other bikes.

Of course, a garage is much better - out of sight, at least in my country.

Another good thing is being nice to the elderly. Those people NEVER sleep :)  and will always let you konw if they saw someone suspicios, or call you (or the police) if they hear some break&enter noise.





Yes and the young women of eastern Europe are very hot too!

Treat everything in life the way a dog would- if you can't eat it or foc it, forget it.

fazersharp

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #34 on: 22 September 2017, 08:44:11 AM »
Back it up with a chain and a BIG bright coloured good quality padlock on the rear wheel if its being left for any length of time, it doesn't really have to be a super heavy duty chain because it someone is going to cut it with a 18volt battery powered disk cutter they will whether it is a 8mm link or a 15mm link, but it is a visual deterrent to the little foc pigs who want to go joy riding. Make sure the chain is of a length that it cannot be laid on the ground as it is difficult to cut a hanging chain with a hammer and chisel. Always use the steering lock.
There is no way you will stop someone nicking your pride and joy if they are determined but you can make life difficult and that will stop the opportunist thief.   

In my knowledge and experience, there is a difference between an 8 and a 15 mm thick link. There is also difference between well hardened steel and cheaper, softer one.

The main breaking point, so to say, is about 12 mm of well hardened steel. From that thickness, it is very hard to cut it with tools that fit under one's jacket to stay invisible. Also, that is the thickness that requires more than a few seconds with a battery run angle grinder - so there will be more noise and light from all the grinding sparks (English term?  :/  ).

No useable system is 100% hack proof, but the goal is to make it more work and more risk for the thieves than the other bikes.

Of course, a garage is much better - out of sight, at least in my country.

Another good thing is being nice to the elderly. Those people NEVER sleep :)  and will always let you konw if they saw someone suspicios, or call you (or the police) if they hear some break&enter noise.





Yes and the young women of eastern Europe are very hot too!


A quick one on hardening from what I know is that its better to have just the case hardened because when a fully hardened link is cut with a 4foot bolt cropper the other link shatters from the energy so with a softer inside both sides of the link have to be cut. An 18/19 mm chain is too fat for the largest bolt croppers to get a purchase in the jaws to be able to cut, wich then only leaves other noisy methods   
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

tommyardin

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #35 on: 22 September 2017, 12:19:59 PM »
Back it up with a chain and a BIG bright coloured good quality padlock on the rear wheel if its being left for any length of time, it doesn't really have to be a super heavy duty chain because it someone is going to cut it with a 18volt battery powered disk cutter they will whether it is a 8mm link or a 15mm link, but it is a visual deterrent to the little foc pigs who want to go joy riding. Make sure the chain is of a length that it cannot be laid on the ground as it is difficult to cut a hanging chain with a hammer and chisel. Always use the steering lock.
There is no way you will stop someone nicking your pride and joy if they are determined but you can make life difficult and that will stop the opportunist thief.   

In my knowledge and experience, there is a difference between an 8 and a 15 mm thick link. There is also difference between well hardened steel and cheaper, softer one.

The main breaking point, so to say, is about 12 mm of well hardened steel. From that thickness, it is very hard to cut it with tools that fit under one's jacket to stay invisible. Also, that is the thickness that requires more than a few seconds with a battery run angle grinder - so there will be more noise and light from all the grinding sparks (English term?  :/  ).

No useable system is 100% hack proof, but the goal is to make it more work and more risk for the thieves than the other bikes.

Of course, a garage is much better - out of sight, at least in my country.

Another good thing is being nice to the elderly. Those people NEVER sleep :)  and will always let you konw if they saw someone suspicios, or call you (or the police) if they hear some break&enter noise.





Yes and the young women of eastern Europe are very hot too!


A quick one on hardening from what I know is that its better to have just the case hardened because when a fully hardened link is cut with a 4foot bolt cropper the other link shatters from the energy so with a softer inside both sides of the link have to be cut. An 18/19 mm chain is too fat for the largest bolt croppers to get a purchase in the jaws to be able to cut, wich then only leaves other noisy methods


That exactly right, that is why you do not need a really expensive chain, the cheaper case hardened chains are more resistant to bolt croppers for the very reason you state, and, a hardened and tempered chain  is more resistant to a disc cutter, but with the latest wafer thin steel cutting disks they remove a very small amount of metal, therefore they cut through so much quicker.
15 to 20 seconds will have you through a heavy duty hard chain, and as long as they have everything else in place for a quick get away before cutting the chain your are not going to be out the front door before your pride and joy disappears for ever 

Most of the scrots (Joy riding opportunists) that are going to pinch your bike are likely to be the cropper brigade and if it looks like too much of a challenge they more on.
The pros out there are going to get it what ever you do.
Just make it look as secure as you can and remember if you buy a 1 kilo heavy duty hardened and tempered chain you also have to carry the foccing thing with you. :rolleyes :eek
Don't mess with the guy if the guy don't mess with you.

Slaninar

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #36 on: 22 September 2017, 07:58:57 PM »
For hardening - the chains without any case hardening are also easy to cut with bolt cutters.
The trick is optimal hardness. Something Abus gets quite right with their Granig X-plus series of chains, U-locks etc. Not sure about other brands, since very few of quality are imported / available in my country.

celticdog

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #37 on: 23 September 2017, 09:08:43 PM »
For hardening - the chains without any case hardening are also easy to cut with bolt cutters.
The trick is optimal hardness. Something Abus gets quite right with their Granig X-plus series of chains, U-locks etc. Not sure about other brands, since very few of quality are imported / available in my country.

Nothing is really theft proof, given enough time. Materials that can't be cut relatively easily with a grinder and the proper disk/blade aren't going to be cheap, They're also very brittle and hard to work with, and/or extremely heavy. However good chain link design helps by making it difficult to get a good angle and purchase on the chain when cutting through it.


High carbon, high molybdenum steel is harder to cut with an angle grinder. The addition of carbide further wears  the blade, slowing progress. The problem with high strength is increased brittleness. You'd have to use a fairly thick cross section and design it in such a way that it would be difficult to strike with force or difficult to pry apart with a jack. Steel like this isn't cheap and is hard to work with than other steels. It's a trade off between being saw and grinder resistant but more vulnerable to cutting torch or impact force.


Making a chain that can't be cut with a diamond wheel on an angle grinder is a tall order. The paradox being in order to make a chain the metal must be workable, so the same means used to produce it can be used to defeat it, i.e. mechanical force and or heat. Buy the best you can afford.  :)
« Last Edit: 23 September 2017, 09:11:24 PM by celticdog »
Treat everything in life the way a dog would- if you can't eat it or foc it, forget it.

Slaninar

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Re: U-lock or Disc lock?
« Reply #38 on: 24 September 2017, 07:36:59 AM »
For hardening - the chains without any case hardening are also easy to cut with bolt cutters.
The trick is optimal hardness. Something Abus gets quite right with their Granig X-plus series of chains, U-locks etc. Not sure about other brands, since very few of quality are imported / available in my country.

Nothing is really theft proof, given enough time. Materials that can't be cut relatively easily with a grinder and the proper disk/blade aren't going to be cheap, They're also very brittle and hard to work with, and/or extremely heavy. However good chain link design helps by making it difficult to get a good angle and purchase on the chain when cutting through it.


High carbon, high molybdenum steel is harder to cut with an angle grinder. The addition of carbide further wears  the blade, slowing progress. The problem with high strength is increased brittleness. You'd have to use a fairly thick cross section and design it in such a way that it would be difficult to strike with force or difficult to pry apart with a jack. Steel like this isn't cheap and is hard to work with than other steels. It's a trade off between being saw and grinder resistant but more vulnerable to cutting torch or impact force.


Making a chain that can't be cut with a diamond wheel on an angle grinder is a tall order. The paradox being in order to make a chain the metal must be workable, so the same means used to produce it can be used to defeat it, i.e. mechanical force and or heat. Buy the best you can afford.  :)

That is all correct. Good chains for locking (motor)bikes are usually hardened somewhere in between - not brittle enough to be easily broken with a hammer and a chisel, but not too soft to be easily cut with bolt cutters. Such chains do have a hardened core (as well as the outer part), just not hardened too much so it becomes brittle. Some cheaper chains have just the outer part hardened, so you can't tell how har to cut they are, until you actually try to cut them. Checking the outer aree of a link it feels and looks just as a thoroughly hardened chain.

Leaving a chain not lying on the ground (and making sure it's a tight fit), leaves the thieves without the luxury of using the ground as a leverage, or as an anvil for the hammer/break approach. For U-locks, that means not leaving room for a car jack to be inserted inside the U part of the lock (so too big is bad).

So, with a good quality chain with links of at least 10 mm (better at least 12 mm) cross section, hexagonally shaped (for a wider area in contact with bolt cutters), it takes very long and good quality bolt cutters (over 50 cm handle), placed against the ground with the body used as a leverage to cut the chain. And it usually needs to be done twice on one link. Or about 20 cm of cutting with a good hand saw with a decent quality blade. Or lots of noise and (relatively long) time with a battery powered angle grinder. This is often enough for the thieves to seek easier pray. Combine that with an alarm as a psychological detterent and bother during the work and, for the about 20 years old Fazer, you're pretty safe. Nothing beats a good garage, though (out of sight).

Making them work for it is the best one can do. If they were into working, they wouldn't be stealing, after all. Also, two good chains is better than one. Or a chain and a cable lock. Amount of work needed is crucial. As well as the amount of noise (and light if using an angle grinder in the dark) - thieves don't want to be heard/seen and caught.

The "extremely heavy" part:
Yes, steel weighs as much as it does. Many manufacturers of bicycle safety chains encase their chains in rubber, plastic, or nylon. So it's often not too easy to see just how thick a link is. When people ask me to see if their chain is any good, the first thing I do is just take it in my hands, holding it in the air. If they're not heavy, there's not a lot of metal used, so the cross section can't be very thick. One of the most often heard complaints when I hand people what I'd recommend to be a good chain/lock is not the price, but "oooh, it's too heavy!"  :)
« Last Edit: 24 September 2017, 07:46:05 AM by Slaninar »