Date: 28-03-24  Time: 19:32 pm

Author Topic: Clutch slip  (Read 2945 times)

Carlh

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Clutch slip
« on: 05 August 2017, 06:44:46 pm »
Hi guys, first post here. I've had a search but I can't find the cure for my clutch slip.


When I bough the bike it slipped a bit. Adjusting the cable didn't help much but adjusting the rod on the other end of the engine did. But it would occasionally still slip at high rpm in the higher gears.


I bit the bullet and ordered new springs, friction plates and gasket. Fitted earlier on and it all went to plan until I came to adjust the clutch. I tightened the bottom adjuster then slackened it quarter turn as per the instructions. Then adjusting the lever needed almost all of my adjustment to get it right with a few mm of play. But pulling away it's slipping really bad to the point I could probably keep it in first and hold it still with the clutch released.


I've tried adjusting the bottom adjuster tighter and looser but still can't get it right.


Anyone have any ideas?


Thanks, Carl

tommyardin

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #1 on: 05 August 2017, 06:56:26 pm »
I would strip it out again and check that everything has gone back in exactly as it should.
Did you soak the plates in 4T motorcycle oil before putting the clutch back together?


What were the plain steel plates like did the have any colouring to them, straw yellow, purple or blue, if they did it could be that the steel plates are buckled.
There is a large circular clip that goes into the mix of plates, did you put that back in the correct place?


Good luck sorting it, this can be caused by people using car oil with molybdenum slip agent in it.


Funny enough there is another post going on in here at the moment talking about this very thing with oils. But I'm afraid you will get as many opinions are there are makes of oil. 


Clean the steel plates well then lay the plain steel plates on a mirror or a piece of plate glass and gently try rocking them on the mirror with one finger opposite each other that will show if they are buckled or not
 
« Last Edit: 05 August 2017, 06:59:50 pm by tommyardin »

unfazed

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #2 on: 05 August 2017, 07:24:20 pm »
Adjusting the clutch

Make sure the Clutch leve pivot hole is not worn before adjusting the clutch

Now,
Screw in the cable adjuster full at the lever end.
Remove the rubber bung on the sprocket cover
Loosen the lock nut with a deep spanner ( it will loosen with a crack and frighten the crap out of you)
Turn the lock nut anti clockwise a full turn
Hold you fingers lightly on the clutch lever
Turn the centre screw clockwise with a good fitting flat screwdriver
You will feel the lever moving out
Keep turning the screw until the lever is about 5 to 6mm from the lever housing.
Tighten the locknut.
Replace the rubber bung
Take the final adjustments at the cable adjuster

darrsi

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #3 on: 05 August 2017, 07:25:46 pm »
You mentioned doing everything other than replacing the clutch cable!
That'll be it if you haven't changed it.
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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #4 on: 05 August 2017, 08:42:14 pm »
did you soak the plates in oil for 24  hours ?


Fazerider

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #5 on: 05 August 2017, 09:41:50 pm »

I hope you didn’t make the standard error of putting the pressure plate on wrong, but the symptoms point that way..
It seems easy to get it slotted on and the screws go in OK, but if you’re unlucky it’s not actually on the correct way… tighten the screws up and they break the bottom of the wells the springs live in and you get no pressure to the plates. The plate needs to go on such that when gentle pressure is applied by hand, the plates are squeezed. If you’re able to wiggle them while pressing on the plate, take the it off and rotate it a sixth of a turn then try again.

Carlh

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #6 on: 06 August 2017, 12:47:50 am »
Thanks for the replies! To answer a few questions yes the plates were soaked in oil and it's a bike specific fully synthetic so shouldn't cause any problems?


I was considering ordering a clutch cable.


I could possibly of fitted the pressure plate wrong. I thought it would go on any way tbh and it clicked straight in the first way I tried. I'll whip the clutch cover off in the morning and turn it a try again.


Yeah I fitted the anti judder ring too. Friction first, then steel then judder then friction so on until I ended on a friction which is the same way it came out so I think that should be right?


Steels didn't have any discolouration at all that I could notice. I didn't pay much attention to whether they were warped or not though

tommyardin

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #7 on: 06 August 2017, 01:15:01 am »
Sounds like you have done all the right things, right oil and soaked, if there was no obvious discolouration on the steels then they will be ok.


My guess is that Fazerider has hit the nail on the head, I have read in here before that it is easy to get the pressure plate on wrong.
Go easy and look when removing the clutch cover and ease it off and you should save the gasket, as long as you make sure it either stays completely on the inner or outer case and does not get torn between the two.
Keep us updated :D



darrsi

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #8 on: 06 August 2017, 06:38:54 am »
You've done nothing wrong by the sounds of things, other than go down the most expensive route first.
But to me it's glaringly obvious by the adjusting process you described that your cable is on its way out and is most likely just stretched beyond usable performance.


I bought one from this place about 4 months ago. I normally buy OEM but thought i'd give it a go anyway and it's been absolutely fine.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-FZS-600-98-03-Motorcycle-Motorbike-Clutch-Cable-OEM-Standard-/391436339981?hash=item5b236c8b0d:g:je8AAOSw3mpXFLsr


This place does pattern parts too and if you order in the morning you should receive it the next day.


http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_600_fazer_sp/00/picture/clutch_cable_-_slinky_glide/


Yamaha OEM cables are probably pushing towards £40 now if you want one on the quick, if you can find a shop.






You need to change your profile info so we know what year of bike you have as there are 3 types, so it can be quite important info with some things.
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Carlh

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #9 on: 06 August 2017, 11:09:36 am »
I've updated my profile with my bike now! Can't believe how helpful you all are here and how quick you've replied!


Whipped the clutch cover off again this morning, tried the pressure plate in a few different ways but it didn't seem to make any difference. Looking at either side of the plate is seems to be symmetrical and I couldn't see any difference in fitting.


I think I may have figured out what's wrong though. The inside of my casing had a tiny rub mark from the clutch. I think that the cable is worn to the point that to get any feel from the lever I'm needed to screw the push rod adjuster too far in, meaning the clutch won't disengage. I think a new cable (which I've ordered) should cure it!


The plates were fairly worn so I'm gonna convince myself it was worth changing them rather than wasting money haha.


I'll update once I've fitted the cable but at the minute I think that's the problem


Thanks for all your help! Carl

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #10 on: 08 August 2017, 11:09:40 am »
Keep rotating the pressure plate and slotting it on. In all but one position it'll jut out by about 5mm. But in one position it'll be nice a flush with plates.

Measure your springs. I had loads of clutch slip with new genuine springs, steel plates and EBC friction plates, new cable and everything. Compared to my old original springs, the new genuine ones were about 0.5-1mm shorter. Reverting back to the old original springs pretty much eradicated my clutch slip (except occasionally when really pushing hard in 3rd when clutch still cool).

I also tried EBC heavy springs. They were longer still and really stiff, and caused opposite problem of loads of drag, and impossible to keep bike stationary when hot! Seems there's a tight tolerance required to get a decent clutch action and it's really bad that brand new genuine springs don't meet it!


Fazerider

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #11 on: 08 August 2017, 12:54:24 pm »
...
Whipped the clutch cover off again this morning, tried the pressure plate in a few different ways but it didn't seem to make any difference. Looking at either side of the plate is seems to be symmetrical and I couldn't see any difference in fitting.
...

If you look closely at the pressure plate you'll see the pegs around the edge that slot into the splines have an uneven relationship with the spring holes such that there are only 2 out of 6 ways to get it in right.
Another common problem when working on the clutch is that the ball bearing that sits on the end of the push-rod can drop out making adjustment impossible. (Though if your clutch is slipping that doesn't sound like that is your problem.)

tommyardin

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #12 on: 10 August 2017, 09:05:41 am »
Hey! What's happening on the clutch front we need an update Carl. :'(

Carlh

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #13 on: 10 August 2017, 12:32:24 pm »
Hi guys, currently away on holiday in Wales so can't do anything until Saturday or Sunday when I go home lol. Hopefully my clutch cable will of arrived. I'll try that along with double checking the pressure plate and try again. Thanks for the info on the pressure plate! So I'm right in thinking the correct way is when it sits closest to the plates?


Hopefully get it sorted before Monday or I'll have to use my van for work it'll take me hours to get home lol

unfazed

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #14 on: 10 August 2017, 05:18:25 pm »
This happend to me a few years ago on my own 600 Fazer, I used two sets of EBC plates and each time it would slip within a 1000 miles,  I even put in EBC springs and they were way too hard. Bought new OEM springs and it was still the same. I evetually wrote to EBC about it and they sent me a new set of plates,  said that the ones I had may have been from a bad batch, :rolleyes When the set they sent me went the same route :'( I bought and fitted OEM plates and had no problem since  :thumbup I am still using the same steel plates.
Best thing I did was foc all the EBC plates and springs into the bin. Lesson learned! the same as their X Foccing discs, SHITE. The only things I found any good from EBC were their HH, Organic and Kevler Brake Pads.

tommyardin

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #15 on: 10 August 2017, 07:05:40 pm »
This happend to me a few years ago on my own 600 Fazer, I used two sets of EBC plates and each time it would slip within a 1000 miles,  I even put in EBC springs and they were way too hard. Bought new OEM springs and it was still the same. I evetually wrote to EBC about it and they sent me a new set of plates,  said that the ones I had may have been from a bad batch, :rolleyes When the set they sent me went the same route :'( I bought and fitted OEM plates and had no problem since  :thumbup I am still using the same steel plates.
Best thing I did was foc all the EBC plates and springs into the bin. Lesson learned! the same as their X Foccing discs, SHITE. The only things I found any good from EBC were their HH, Organic and Kevler Brake Pads.




Do I take it then that your not that enammered with the EBC patterned parts then Mr Unfazed. Apart from their brake pads.
Ho shit! The Mrs and I are on the Isle of White at the Mo we have friends who own a house at Ventnor and they were really kind and let us have their house (Holiday Home) for a week. The location is delightfull, up high on Boniface Down overlooking the sea (About 200 feet below us and 1/4 miles away) all we need is for it to stop raining, absolutely pissed down yesterday all day,
Today a lot better late afternoon, but we are returning home on Saturday and not convinced this sunnier weather is going to last.
But, it was nice getting away and I used my newly acquired Old Gits Rail Card, and my Senior Citizens Bus Pass, lol first time I have used them, Mrs is pissed off co she is not like me, for I am qualified and she is not. 

unfazed

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #16 on: 10 August 2017, 08:15:28 pm »


Do I take it then that your not that enammered with the EBC patterned parts then Mr Unfazed. Apart from their brake pads.
 

Jaysus Tommy, what make you think that?  :lol

Carlh

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #17 on: 15 August 2017, 06:03:06 am »
Finally got it almost right. Tried the pressure plate again but any way I fitted it it always put pressure onto the plates but I found where it felt most snug. Changed the cable and it's working fine now. No slip at all.


Only trouble I'm having now is how heavy the clutch has become. I'm using ebc hd springs but it's really really heavy. To the point I can only just use 2 fingers. Also, no amount of adjusting can make down changes smooth unless I pull the lever right back to the bar. I've never used all 4 fingers on the clutch and don't want to start either as if I get into that habit I'll be straight off my motocross bike lol.


Stupidly I threw away the ornignal springs, just wondering if anyone knows of any that are similar to standard or where I can find some original ones?


Has anybody ever tried removing 2 springs and running 4? It would work but I'm worried about damaging the pressure plate?

darrsi

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #18 on: 15 August 2017, 06:28:35 am »
Not your fault, as you weren't to know, but it's plastered all over this site not to use anything other than original springs for the very reasons you're giving.
Glad the cable sorted the other issue out.  :D



In the "Clutch" section.


https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/
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tommyardin

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Re: Clutch slip
« Reply #19 on: 15 August 2017, 07:27:53 am »
Finally got it almost right. Tried the pressure plate again but any way I fitted it it always put pressure onto the plates but I found where it felt most snug. Changed the cable and it's working fine now. No slip at all.


Only trouble I'm having now is how heavy the clutch has become. I'm using ebc hd springs but it's really really heavy. To the point I can only just use 2 fingers. Also, no amount of adjusting can make down changes smooth unless I pull the lever right back to the bar. I've never used all 4 fingers on the clutch and don't want to start either as if I get into that habit I'll be straight off my motocross bike lol.


Stupidly I threw away the ornignal springs, just wondering if anyone knows of any that are similar to standard or where I can find some original ones?


Has anybody ever tried removing 2 springs and running 4? It would work but I'm worried about damaging the pressure plate?


Firstly don't run the bike with only four clutch pressure springs fitted, you will not be able to get even pressure because of the pattern of the spring layout, my guess you would end up with clutch slip again because of that uneven pressure, also, it could cause vibrations at higher speeds as the clutch would be out of balance.
It was designed to operate with six springs.


I have often wondered why people seem to change their clutch springs when they put new plates in the basket? I have heard people say that they lose their tension because of the heat generated in the engine and because they are compressed all the time when changing gears, personally I am not convinced of either of these reasons.


Oil in an engine does get hot because of the heat generated inside, but clutch spring do not get anywhere near as hot or take a fraction of a hammering as say the valve return springs sat up in the cam shaft area (that has got to be one of the hottest areas on the engine), but we don't change them when we do the valve clearances.


As far as springs under constant pressure is concerned the springs in the front forks or the rear shocker take a hammering with every bump or undulation you ride over.
Clutch springs it seems to me are under constant moderate pressure until the lever is pulled in to change cog, don't seem a great deal of work.
 
An engine revving at 8,000 revs a minute X four cylinders works out at 32,000 piston strokes per minute, or 533 per second, now if a spring ever needs replacing I would think them poor old valve springs sat in that hell hole of an environment were candidates for that, the clutch springs by definition are laying on a sunny beach somewhere have an easy old time of it.


OK it's a bit tongue-in-cheek.


The reality of it is that the clutch springs have a relatively easy time of it, people seems to think that the answer to a slipping clutch is to apply more pressure, of course it might be time to change the springs but why go and put springs in that take 50% more effort to compress then wonder why you clutch feels heavy 


Lastly get yourself an old ice cream tub and chuck all the odd bits and pieces that you replace on the bike in there, at least until you know for certainty that all is well with what you have replaced.
I assume that the dustmans been since the springs went in the bin? they come fortnightly around my way.



The image attached is not a FZS600 engine but it shows the environment that valve springs operate in, just above the combustion area and we all know that heat rises