Oil change - will this cause issues?

[reggit]

just dropped the oil on my very much abused bike (separate thread), a lot of water condensation in it as expected.


Will running cheap mineral car oil for around 100 miles cause any issues?  I want to use it as a flush before changing again to a decent motorcycle spec oil?

[Falcon 269]

No, no problems with that at all.  Good idea, IMHO.

[FILZ6]

Ditto, no problem at all.


I have a mate who has run cheap car oil in his bikes for years, never had a problem.

[BBROWN1664]

I wouldn't even run it for 100 miles.

Start the bike, let it idle for 10 mins and then drain.

[PaulSmith]

I would always do a double change on a second hand bike. For a bike in the condition you described, I would keep changing the oil every few hundred miles until it came out clean, and only then, put the good stuff in. It is not really the distance between changes that matters so much as the heat cycles. Get it up to temperature a few times so the fresh oil can melt and dissolve the built up gunk.

[reggit]

I would always do a double change on a second hand bike. For a bike in the condition you described, I would keep changing the oil every few hundred miles until it came out clean, and only then, put the good stuff in. It is not really the distance between changes that matters so much as the heat cycles. Get it up to temperature a few times so the fresh oil can melt and dissolve the built up gunk.

That was my idea of a 100 mile run - it's also strangely about the distance to the rally I hope to go to next weekend!


I've put semi-decent stuff in, as I couldn't get cheapo stuff last night and was far too impatient to wait any longer.

[Gaz66]

The oil argument has been done to death on every forum.


It's ok to use an a bottle of engine flush in a bikes motor, put it into a hot engine & let it idle for 10-15 minutes, then drain it.
 
Car oil in a bike motor " Oh no no no sir"
Not a good move at all, anyone that thinks it's a good idea obviously has no knowledge about oils & how they work under load/pressure/heat/shearing forces etc.


Oil companies spend millions developing the stuff.


Car oil for cars, Bike oil for bikes & never to be mixed.


After 35 yrs of looking after my customers vehicles "I'd never mix Car & Bike oil" because i know about the properties of oils, I go through about 40-50 gallons a wk servicing my customers cars & bikes....Never in a million yrs would i consider mixing bike & car oils for any reason.


Ultimately it's your own choice, best advice i can offer is don't do it.

[Falcon 269]

If you're one of those who have no idea about oils and how they work, and don't have the time to acquire 35 years of experience looking after vehicles, you might like to raise your awareness a bit by reading the following:

https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oil.html

For those with ... ahem ... shorter attention spans, you might find the opening sections on oil basics a bit too much like an A-level chemistry course.  I did but I persevered with it.  When you get older you need less sleep.  At night, that is.  If you are young and have a normal life, skip ahead to the section on 'Choosing an oil for your motorcycle' and read that and the rest of the article.

A selective quote from this section says it all:  "Generally, any oil certified for use in a late model Volkswagon or Mercedes turbo diesel is a good choice."  The author explains why - in great detail - before making that statement.  The curious may choose to backtrack to find out more.  The trusting types will not.

Personally, I've run 10w40 fully synthetic diesel automotive oil in my Fazer for 40k miles with no clutch slippage issues, the usual reason for warning bikers away from auto oils.  Ah, but what does my motor look like inside?  Very clean, far as I can tell from routine maintenance.  Still runs like a Swiss watch.  But louder.  A sizeable number of FZ1 owners in the US run theirs on Rotella-T, the diesel synthetic favoured by the author.  Plenty of FZ1s in the 'states have over 100k on the clock.  They run like Swiss watches, too.  Clever people, the Swiss.  But quiet.  Except for the cow bells. 

Anyway, time was when I would get drawn into extended debate in oil threads but no longer.  Let's leave it at this:

It's fair to say that if you don't know what you're buying or understand something about oil other than it's golden and slippery, then sticking to bike-specific oil (preferably fully synthetic) is the safest bet.  It will cost you more but the extra few quid are the price of ignorance. 

If you take the trouble to learn a bit more by reading, then you can save a few quid and run your bike perfectly well on an appropriate type and grade of fully synthetic automotive diesel oil.  I learned this out of necessity.  Because bike-specific oils are vastly more expensive than auto oils in Spain, I decided ... well, my wallet did ... that I couldn't afford to remain ignorant (on this, at least) so I researched the subject in depth.  As a result, not only am I better off financially, I also have another subject to bore folk with at parties.  Win-win.

Best advice I can offer is don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Right, I'm off for a kip ...

[PieEater]

Interesting article Mike, I never knew that the fully synthetic oil I was buying was in fact mineral oil, or that a 10-40w semi-synth is essentially knackered by 1500 miles. My take on the article though is it appears quite definite in confirming the commonly held belief that using a cheap car oil in your motorcycle is not a good idea, and outlines a number of reasons for this.

[Falcon 269]

Using a cheap oil of any kind in a high-revving motorcycle engine isn't a good idea.  

I was also struck by the bit about how seeing 'synthetic' on the can doesn't actually guarantee that what's inside was totally synthesized by lab rats rather than being a mineral-based oil refined to a much higher specification. 

Enlightened, I am.

[tommyardin]

All sounds like a load of bollocks to me. 


My understanding is that car oils have molybdenum in them, this is actually a slip agent, it helps reduce wear on car engine moving parts by effectively adding extra slip, great, but not on a multi plate wet clutch.


What-ever your manufacturer preference is for motorcycle oil is is a personal thing, but my advice would be make sure it is a 4T oil designed for motorcycles with wet clutches.
£5 or £6 extra on an oil change is a lot cheaper that have to change the friction and plain steel plates in your clutch, plus its a lot less effort and down time.


You pays your money and you takes your chances.
What do Yamaha say? I don't know cos I never looked.


Shell Advanced 4T for me every time, either Fully or Semi depending what is on offer at the time.
Flushing oil with the motor running for 10-15 minutes seems a good move as you are not operating the clutch in the oil your flushing with.


Or change your oil regularly and no need to flush 3.5 to 4K seems a good mileage to change it at, you can change the oil filter every other change, cos it has never had old oil passing through it that has done more than 4K miles       

[Falcon 269]

All sounds like a load of bollocks to me. 


My understanding is that car oils have molybdenum in them, this is actually a slip agent, it helps reduce wear on car engine moving parts by effectively adding extra slip, great, but not on a multi plate wet clutch.

Not bollocks at all.   

If you would spare the time to read the linked article, you would learn that not all car oils contain molybdenum.  Far from it.  It's also easy to find out which do and which don't. 

However, you have your way of approaching this and that's fine. 

[steve 10562cc]

Had to fit new clutch, flush the engine twice to get rid of the car oil to a Bandit 1200 previous owner had used gave a new meaning to slipping the clutch expensive oil and filter change. I was always told never use car oil in a wet clutch bike.

[Falcon 269]

Unlucky you, paying the price for someone else's ignorance.    

That's a good enough reason for many to say 'nah, not interested in deviating from bike-specific oil' and I understand that.  But like I said, it's so easy to work out which auto oils will cause problems and which will be good for bike engines.  You just have to be prepared to do a bit of research and use your noddle.

[tommyardin]

Had to fit new clutch, flush the engine twice to get rid of the car oil to a Bandit 1200 previous owner had used gave a new meaning to slipping the clutch expensive oil and filter change. I was always told never use car oil in a wet clutch bike.

I'm with you Steve car oil is a big no no as you found out to your cost because of someone else ignorance, glad you got it sorted.
They make motorcycle specific oil for a reason and before someone say 'Yeah to rip us poor motorcyclists off' you can say that about all sorts of specific related sports gear, trainers for instance is it necessary to spend £100 plus on them, £6 a metre on climbing ropes, £120 on a Shimano Baitrunner fishing reel? No of course not, but you just might wish you had as your hurtling down a 80 metre shear rock face with a bit of frayed hessian in your hand, or the carp of a lifetime on the end of your line and the cheap plastic handle of you reel falls off. Is that sole flapping about on those trainer you bought off eBay for £14.99. Or has my clutch just started slipping?


If you love something you treat it the best way you can, whether its fishing, running, rock climbing or motorcycling, or,heavens forbid even her indoors. Treat one of them with contempt and you could end up in deep doo doo.


I wonder what does Yamaha say about the correct oils to use in the motorcycles.


And as far as reading the article Falcon posted I could do the oil change in the time it took me to read and inwardly digest that and then I would still continue using motorcycle specific oil.

[noggythenog]

This is a good thread......i'll have a swatch at that thread on my night shift but just as a general rule then Mr Falcon.............I've got a 2006 Mercedes Sprinter Diesel so if I get the best quality fully synth stuff for it I can also perhaps use it in the fazer.......that would be very handy to just bulk buy and only have 1 type of oil lurking around in my shed

[Falcon 269]

I stay away from any auto oil labelled Energy Conserving II as this will have friction modifiers that will screw a wet clutch. 

I also avoid oils with viscosity ratings of 30 or lower; 0w30, 5w30 and so on.  First, because Yamaha recommend a 10w40 oil for typical UK temperature ranges (-10c to 40c) and second because there's a possibility that these lower viscosity oils may have friction modifiers, even if they're not labelled as Energy Conserving II. 

I discovered today that Yamaha used to list 0w30 oil as an option for use in extreme cold conditions but dropped that from later models.  Rumour is that it was in part due to a number of clutch problems caused by owners using low viscosity auto oils which had unspecified friction modifiers.

Auto or bike-specific, everything I've read suggests that semi-synth oils tend to fall between two stools.  They will be Group II mineral-based oils with perhaps 30% or so synthetic stock added.  Since a mineral 10w40 will be pretty much reduced to a 10w25 within 1500 miles in a motorcycle motor, I don't believe - personal opinion, I stress - that a semi-synth blend will fare that much better.   I like to go 4k miles between oil changes so that rules out semi-synth oils of any kind for me.

While it would be great to be able to use only one oil type in your Merc Sprinter and your bike, that depends on the viscosity rating Merc recommend for the van.  If they're anything like FIAT specify for the turbo diesel in my motorhome, they might call for a 0w30 or 5w30 oil which falls under the 'too thin to be sure, don't use' criteria I follow for my Fazer and R1.

Since I live and ride in temps of 10c to 45c, my preference is a fully synthetic 15w40 or 20w50 C-rated (Commercial/Diesel) oil.  The price point I aim to buy at usually means that the synthetic will be a Group III mineral-based synthetic rather than a PAO Group IV 'true' synthetic.

[noggythenog]

Cheers Mike

yeh you've brought up another important point there.....my bike will be for hot sunny days only so I wont really need a low viscosity product and i'll probably stick with 10W40.

My van on the other hand will be a camper and my daily runner so it will be out all year round and down to circa -10 in extremes over here in the UK...so i'll need something that can cope with a greater range for it.....also it'll be doing plenty short journeys mixed with big trips...I wont always have the luxury of getting the engine up to temp before setting off in it....probably another need for low viscosity.

I also hadn't realised how much semi synth could degrade and I too like to get a few thousand out the bike before changing it.

I had read somewhere about not changing over from semi to fully if a motor has been run on one type for a long time but tbh I don't really buy into that and I reckon i'll go with some fully synth in both vehicles now.

[Falcon 269]

I had read somewhere about not changing over from semi to fully if a motor has been run on one type for a long time but tbh I don't really buy into that and I reckon i'll go with some fully synth in both vehicles now.

Another of the many oil myths on the internet, along with don't use synthetic until the bike has done 10k miles etc etc.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Oh boy, oh joy, another oil thread.

  Personally, I just buy a tub of oil, semi-synth, 10-40 with a picture of a bike on it, and usually change it every year along wi the filter.  Yes it’s a bit of a rip off for what is usually a pretty basic oil, but they meet Yamaha’s spec and with that their service interval.


However, I hear what Mike is saying, and if the price was prohibitive, and Mike says it is in Spain, then I’d be reading that article and a few others from reputable sources.  I’m pretty sure there are other options other than those with a picture of a bike on the label.

Another of the many oil myths on the internet, along with don't use synthetic until the bike has done 10k miles etc etc.

Since I bought it in 2004 my Fazer has had a few different bands of oil, mostly semi-synth but a couple of changes were fully synth.  Just depends whose stocking what and for what price.


Running in?  Oh boy, oh joy – that’s another whole thread.    I’m not convinced that that one is entirely just a myth.  Seeing as you don’t sleep much Mike, here’s an interesting article (that’s if you haven’t come across it already;
http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/running

Anybody fancy a thread on super unleaded?
 
 

[Falcon 269]

Haven't had a go in a good oil thread for years.  This is just like old times! 

As you rightly say, if an oil meets Yamaha's specs and stays 'in grade' for whatever oil change interval you work to, then it doesn't matter what pictures are on the can. 

When I first moved here a typical bike synthetic oil was three times the price of the same oil in the UK.  It was also twice the price of an auto synthetic over here.  I was aware that loads of US FZ1 forum members used auto oil in their bikes (typically Rotella-T) and so I researched online to find out more and to determine which European (ACEA) oil specs matched the API ratings. 

I settled on Carrefour supermarket own brand diesel synthetic and have used that for over a decade now.  It used to come out of the Mobil facility in Rouen.  Latterly it's been suggested that it's an Elf or Total product which suggests that the supermarkets bulk buy from whichever major refinery gives them the best deal.  Friends here have used the same oil in a range of bikes and none have had any clutch issues.  I learned this morning that the Spanish Africa Twin community love the Carrefour 5w/50 stuff, too.  Nowadays it's sold as 'Essence & Diesel' meaning that they've stopped packaging it separately for petrol or diesel motors.

The stuff I have in the Fazer right now is actually 5w/50 and rated ACEA standard A3/B3/B4, and API SL/CF.  A word of caution. 

If you decide to investigate using auto oil, too, don't confuse ACEA C-ratings with API C(Commercial) ratings.  They don't mean the same thing. 

The running-in article is a new one on me and made interesting reading.  I've always subscribed to the idea of breaking in a motor fairly briskly, if you get my drift.  My Fazer was an ex-demo bike so would have had numerous heat cycles and some fairly regular excursions beyond 6k rpm before I got hold of it.  It runs beautifully.  

The info from Castrol on the use of synthetic oil too early in the life of an engine was the first I've seen to support the 'not before 10k miles' line.  Not because it's too slippery (which would be bollocks ) but because of the unknown chemistry factors somehow at play. 

Super unleaded?  Super stuff.  But not in my Fazer ...

[Dudeofrude]

[quote author=Falcon 269 link=topic=23009.msg265634#msg265634

Another of the many oil myths on the internet, along with don't use synthetic until the bike has done 10k miles etc etc.
[/quote]

10ķ miles? My bike is 10 years old and only hit that last month 😥
Best go get some fully synth now that it's worn in haha

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 

Haven't had a go in a good oil thread for years.  This is just like old times! 

Last time we did an oil thread it went on for endless pages and caused a few headaches. 
 

As you rightly say, if an oil meets Yamaha's specs and stays 'in grade' for whatever oil change interval you work to, then it doesn't matter what pictures are on the can.

Not quite what I was saying.  I think the fear is it can meet the API spec (which is pretty basic in the case of the old thou) but wreck the clutch cos it has a friction modifier in it.  So that’s why, being lazy, or playing safe, I choose an oil with a picture of a motorcycle on it.  Or if you wish to be a little more scientific about it, you look for a JASO spec ie JASO MA2 rather than just a picture of a motorcycle


JASO MA2 means - This specification was introduced in 2006 for modern motorcycle engines. As well as being a higher standard of oil the JASO-MA2 approval means the oil is suitable for use in bikes with catalytic converts in the exhaust system.   JASO-MA oils don’t contain friction modifiers.


Yamaha specifies API SE I think.
In my garage I have found the following;
Silkoline super 4 – API SF,SG and SH        JASO MA2            10/40
Silolene comp 4 – API SL                                JASO MA2           10/40
Motul 5100 4T  - API SG,SH,SJ,SL,SM      JASO MA2    JASO T903  10/40
Castrol Edge 5130 – VW 504 00/507 00  5/30
Quantum Platinum – VW 502/00                5/40
I think the problem is the oil manufactures are a bit vague as to which oils they use friction modifiers in and which they do not.  And yup it pays em to be vague, as they can them sell us the same oil, or a cheaper lower grade oil for a higher price.  Good for them and good for the motorcycle retailers but we get ripped off.
 

[tommyardin]

A lot of what get said about this grade and that grade of oil, what has got slip agents added and what has not, it can just becomes a talking point and can stop you really making up your mind about what way to go oil wise, If the extra few quid a year that would be spent on on bike specific oil is that important to the owner then you really are on a tight budget.
If the cost of bike specific oil is £10 per 4 Ltrs, and given that you do maybe two changes a year at 4,000 mile intervals we are talking about £20 quid a year for oil changes, add to that the cost of one filter £6 your looking at £26 quid a year half the cost of a pair of mediocre trainers, and likely a quarter the cost of a set of friction plates for the old girl, plus no downtime and no hastle replaceing the friction plates and gasket and replacing the oil yet again.
FFS go buy 4T oil and sleep easy, and, before you say it's alright if you can afford to but the more expensive stuff, it's cheaper than the bike being off the road for perhaps a week while you order the plates and fit them, and pay public transport fares to get to work if your lucky to live on transport routes. Let alone getting a bollocking off you boss for being late. Shall I keep bigging this up or leave it at that.


Of course you can do what you like but don't squinny about slipping clutches, the price of clutch plates (And you always change the springs at the same time) and having to pay someone £40 to trailer your bike home.


I love the wind up
BUT! there is a lot of sense in it.
Happy Days 

[Dea-ville]

Kinn ell, this is going on longer than Dallas, somebody start a "which is the best tyre" thread ffs.