Date: 23-10-19  Time: 15:04 PM

Author Topic: How does the ignition advance work?  (Read 1380 times)

His Dudeness

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How does the ignition advance work?
« on: 05 August 2017, 09:40:42 PM »
This is embarrassing to admit but purely out of interest I had a look at the 600 wiring diagram (because that's how boring I am :lol ). I marked in all the power wires in red and grounds in blue. I've done the whole loom except the wires associated with the ignition advance. I'm not sure what's happening between the pickup coil, tps and speedo sensor. I could have a stab at it but I'm not 100% sure so I was wondering if anyone could explain those components and the signals they send out? ;)

The wiring diagram I'm looking at is on the last page of this manual http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8
And I'm looking at the wires in and out of components 14, 15 and 17.

Fazerider

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #1 on: 05 August 2017, 10:14:41 PM »

The common Black/Blue wire is almost certainly ground (easy enough to test).
In which case the White/Red from the engine pickup (14) is the crank position pulse.
After that it’s guesswork: the Blue and Yellow ones to the TPS (15) will be a positive supply (probably 12v via a resistance) and the return voltage from the wiper of the potentiometer in the TPS, but you’d need to do some measurements to find out which is which.
The Blue/Yellow wire from the speedo (17) looks like it probably carries the pulses from what I assume is a Hall Effect sensor which detects the magnetic poles from the plastic rotor. Which would leave the White one as a supply rail which may be 12V, or less, or they could be the other way round.
I don’t fully understand the role of the speed sensor, I’ve had it fail and not noticed any adverse effect on running, but many say otherwise. Ignition advance required can be determined from the engine revs and the TPS, I can’t see why road speed would need to be taken into account.

His Dudeness

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #2 on: 05 August 2017, 10:32:32 PM »
Thanks Fazerrider ;)

unfazed

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #3 on: 07 August 2017, 12:41:11 AM »
Generally the Speed Sensor and TPS control the advance of the timing. When the engine is revved, but bike is not moving the timing variation is different as to what it would be when under load hence the requirement of the speed sensor, TPS and the rev counter to work together. The timing changes depending on the TPS position when not moving but has a different setting when at the same throttle position but on the move and the revs and speed are up. The would changes the torques levels also by varying the timing as a given speed throttle position, engine revs and speed. The system in the fazer is basic compared to the later systems in bikes and cars since it has carburettors and it cannot change the fueling.
Newer designed systems for fuel injected engines can vary the timing and fueling dependent on throttle position, vehicle speed, engine revs, air flow, temperature and a few others. The torque levels can be varied by the advance or retard of the ignition and fueling depending on the values detected from all  sensors.
The reason Fazerider probable noticed no difference was that signal stopped because the rotor broke and it would appear to the ignitor that the bike was not being ridden. If the cable was cut then the ignitor would see it and throw up an error signal to the Rev Counter, however an intermittent fault to the cable could cause a misfire or rough running due to the constant variation of the timing the same as worn tracks on the TPS does.

Hope that makes sense  :rolleyes

His Dudeness

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #4 on: 07 August 2017, 09:12:34 AM »
That does make sense thanks unfazed ;) I'll have to get the multimeter out and do some prodding and poking :lol

Disorderlypunk

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #5 on: 07 August 2017, 09:40:55 AM »
and i thought i was bad with looking over wiring diagrams
i spent an afternoon with a A3 photocopy of a gs1100 wiring diagram and a bottle of tipex deciding what i did and didnt really need to give myself a
chop wiring diagram lol - it looked wierd as i was doing it in a pub but thank god it was a bikers pub so not the wierdest thing thats happened i there.


His Dudeness

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #6 on: 07 August 2017, 09:55:22 AM »
and i thought i was bad with looking over wiring diagrams
i spent an afternoon with a A3 photocopy of a gs1100 wiring diagram and a bottle of tipex deciding what i did and didnt really need to give myself a
chop wiring diagram lol - it looked wierd as i was doing it in a pub but thank god it was a bikers pub so not the wierdest thing thats happened i there.

 :lol

For me I'm getting a kick out of the fact that I've had the bike a good while and I'm still learning new stuff about it. It's a bit like the feeling you have when you first get the bike and everything about it is new but not quite as good as that! :lol

unfazed

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #7 on: 07 August 2017, 11:13:14 AM »
The weird and wonderful world of the true biker  :lol never stop learning  :thumbup

Fazerider

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #8 on: 07 August 2017, 01:50:40 PM »
Generally the Speed Sensor and TPS control the advance of the timing. When the engine is revved, but bike is not moving the timing variation is different as to what it would be when under load hence the requirement of the speed sensor, TPS and the rev counter to work together. The timing changes depending on the TPS position when not moving but has a different setting when at the same throttle position but on the move and the revs and speed are up. The would changes the torques levels also by varying the timing as a given speed throttle position, engine revs and speed. The system in the fazer is basic compared to the later systems in bikes and cars since it has carburettors and it cannot change the fueling.
Newer designed systems for fuel injected engines can vary the timing and fueling dependent on throttle position, vehicle speed, engine revs, air flow, temperature and a few others. The torque levels can be varied by the advance or retard of the ignition and fueling depending on the values detected from all  sensors.
The reason Fazerider probable noticed no difference was that signal stopped because the rotor broke and it would appear to the ignitor that the bike was not being ridden. If the cable was cut then the ignitor would see it and throw up an error signal to the Rev Counter, however an intermittent fault to the cable could cause a misfire or rough running due to the constant variation of the timing the same as worn tracks on the TPS does.

Hope that makes sense  :rolleyes

Well, not to me. If the revs are high and the TPS sees a small opening angle then the ignition controller knows the load on the engine is low.
Conversely, if you're thrashing up through the gears at max throttle, why would ignition advance need to be different in 6th as opposed to 2nd gear? If the Fazer employed a ram-air system to pressurise the airbox it might make some kind of sense (though not as much as having an air mass sensor), but the intake is from a zone of still air.
I’ve had two issues with the speed sensor. The first was when the sensor itself died and  the speedo registered 0 mph at all speeds. The second was when a clumsy mis-routing of the cable caused it to rub against the brake rotor bolts and the speedo needle randomly jumped around from endstop to endstop.  I didn’t experience any change in engine behaviour on either occasion.

unfazed

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #9 on: 07 August 2017, 04:53:06 PM »
Well Fazerrider I bow to your superior knowledge of the intricacies of the internal combustion engine and its associated electronics  :rolleyes :think

His Dudeness

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #10 on: 07 August 2017, 06:21:41 PM »
I'm getting in way above my pay grade here :lol but the old Haynes book of lies  :lol doesn't include the speedo sensor it says

"All models are fitted with a fully transistorised electronic ignition system, which due to its lack of mechanical parts is totally maintenance-free. The system comprises a rotor, pick-up coil, ignition control unit and ignition HT coils (refer to the wiring diagrams at the end of Chapter 9 for details). All models are fitted with two HT coils. A throttle position sensor provides information for the ignition control unit. The ignition triggers, which are on the alternator rotor on the left-hand end of the crankshaft, magnetically operate the pick-up coil as the crankshaft rotates. The pick-up coil sends a signal to the ignition control unit which then supplies the ignition HT coils with the power necessary to produce" Chapter 5.1


Then further on it says

"The throttle position sensor (IPS) is mounted on the outside of the right-hand carburettor and is keyed to the throttle shaft. The sensor provides the ignition control unit with information on throttle position and rate of opening or closing." 5.7

Maybe the ignitor is using the rate of change of the tps rather than the speedo or tacho signal?

unfazed

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #11 on: 07 August 2017, 09:02:05 PM »
The wires are as follows on the Sensors:
L/Y is the positive feed
W is the signal output to the Ignitor, the Speedo and Odometer from the Speed sensor
B/L is the earth fed from the ignitor.
W/R is the signal output to the ignitor from the pick-up
Y is the signal output from the TPs to the ignitor
L is power from the ignitor
Speed sensor pulses over either 12mph (20 Kph) are not used by the ignitor as all timing timing above that road speed is controled by the TPS angle and engine speed.


His Dudeness

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #12 on: 08 August 2017, 12:08:21 AM »
The wires are as follows on the Sensors:
L/Y is the positive feed
W is the signal output to the Ignitor, the Speedo and Odometer from the Speed sensor
B/L is the earth fed from the ignitor.
W/R is the signal output to the ignitor from the pick-up
Y is the signal output from the TPs to the ignitor
L is power from the ignitor
Speed sensor pulses over either 12mph (20 Kph) are not used by the ignitor as all timing timing above that road speed is controled by the TPS angle and engine speed.

Good man Unfazed ;) This has sparked my interest in automotive electronics. I'm going to keep learning about it. I think the aul Fazer is a good starting point because there's only a few components in the circuit and once you understand them you have the basics and you can go on and get into the more complicated circuits in fuel injection and learn how they work. Bikes are feckin great. Best thing I ever got into :) Thanks for everyone's input ;) Hopefully this thread helps someone else too

Disorderlypunk

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #13 on: 08 August 2017, 10:11:08 AM »
sometimes when things get slightly confusing imagine
spinny spinny sparky spark bang bang whoop  :lol

Fazerider

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #14 on: 08 August 2017, 12:18:02 PM »

The wires are as follows on the Sensors:
L/Y is the positive feed
W is the signal output to the Ignitor, the Speedo and Odometer from the Speed sensor
B/L is the earth fed from the ignitor.
W/R is the signal output to the ignitor from the pick-up
Y is the signal output from the TPs to the ignitor
L is power from the ignitor
Speed sensor pulses over either 12mph (20 Kph) are not used by the ignitor as all timing timing above that road speed is controled by the TPS angle and engine speed.
Good work!
I'd realised the power and signal wires for the speedo must be the other way round from my initial guess since the ignition must be aware of the pulses in order to produce the 4000rpm fault warning on the tacho. (Though why you'd notice that, but not a dead or erratic speedo reading is a puzzle.)
So what is the purpose of the low-speed adjustment to ignition timing? Does retarding it slightly improve rideabilty or something? Perhaps that would be why I'd not noticed any effect since most of my commute is well above 12 mph.
It does raise the question of whether dyno test results are invalid since most seem to involve the front wheel being firmly clamped. Perhaps those who've tried and failed to get decent results with rejetting for pod filters have fallen foul of this?

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #15 on: 14 August 2017, 11:06:09 AM »
Ah, this is interesting, my first post on here was about whether the speedo and rev counter play a part in the ignition timing, I've got a digital speedo/rev counter instead of the standard unit so no communication between the clocks and the ignition system, the carbs were full of crud when I bought the bike so until they'd been stripped and properly cleaned, I was clutching at straws why it ran poorly. The good news is, even though I've never ridden a standard Fazer, mine seems fine, nice idle, good throttle response and no noticeable flat spots (even tho there's a train tunnel of a tailpipe on it)
I had a play with the TPS after I'd cleaned the carbs out and by trial and error (no rev counter display) It's running fine. Unless I'm really missing something , I'm not too worried about the role of the speed sensor in the ignition timing.
I'm not a fan of fly by wire electronic gubbins and sensors etc. They're great when they're working but never seem to be fixable at the side of the road. Fuel injected lawn mowers are on the way so I reckon the days of setting gaps with a Rizla lid and riding off are well gone :)
Rust never sleeps !

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #16 on: 14 August 2017, 05:15:04 PM »
I was taught to use bran flakes box cardboard for the points gap but never been able to find them on the Fazer. 

His Dudeness

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #17 on: 14 August 2017, 06:16:38 PM »
I was taught to use bran flakes box cardboard for the points gap but never been able to find them on the Fazer.

Give it another few years and you won't be able to find the engine never mind the points :lol Just to be clear I wasn't having a go at you when I wrote that which is what it looked like when I read it back :lol What I meant is that petrol engines will be replaced by electric soon
« Last Edit: 14 August 2017, 06:33:14 PM by His Dudeness »

unfazed

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #18 on: 14 August 2017, 07:14:27 PM »
I was taught to use bran flakes box cardboard for the points gap but never been able to find them on the Fazer.

You did not look very hard, They're at the rear of the engine in front of the Swinging arm just under the air box  :lol

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #19 on: 14 August 2017, 09:52:32 PM »
I was taught to use bran flakes box cardboard for the points gap but never been able to find them on the Fazer.

You did not look very hard, They're at the rear of the engine in front of the Swinging arm just under the air box  :lol
Here's me thinking they were on the railway track. :z

Disorderlypunk

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Re: How does the ignition advance work?
« Reply #20 on: 14 August 2017, 10:12:46 PM »
easiest way to see lots of points is to do a wheelie down the highstreet
a byproduct is also shouting, blue lights, sirens and a uniformed man wanting to give you a race