Oil filters

[darrsi]

I've stopped using the K&N oil filters now. I've heard of a few cases where they fail and leak. The bit with the nut attached fails and they leak everywhere. Happened to a mate on his Speed Triple whilst zooming round the alps! Was super lucky to both not lose it on the trail of leaking oil or seize up his engine... Some reckon they fail if you try to tighten them with the nut (which you should do anyway), but my mate certainly didn't do that. Dunno, could have just been a bad batch going round. Either way, I wouldn't want to take the risk.

My last one i had of the K&N version leaked exactly as you described, and i only put it on hand tight without attempting to use the daft sizeless nut.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Hiflo are TUV approved and will perform to the same standard as OE, but they're of a lesser quality i.e. the paint is thinner and the steel is lower grade, therefore they rust much quicker, they can also be pigs to get off at times.

HIflo, according to their web site have been making OEM filters since 1963.  I've been using em for quite a few years now, it seems to be to be the same quality as the Yamaha marked product.

Should be torqued to 17NM.  Use one of these to fit then remove;

http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_1000_fazer/04-05/picture/oil_filter_wrench/

personally I go OE with Silkolene Comp 4. 

Hiflo and super4 for me. Comp 4 is fully synth, OTT I'd say for road use, and if you must make sure you have some miles on the bike before you start filling it with fully synth as can polish bores which leads to a bike that burns oil.

[Gnasher]

Hiflo are TUV approved and will perform to the same standard as OE, but they're of a lesser quality i.e. the paint is thinner and the steel is lower grade, therefore they rust much quicker, they can also be pigs to get off at times.

HIflo, according to their web site have been making OEM filters since 1963.  I've been using em for quite a few years now, it seems to be to be the same quality as the Yamaha marked product.

Should be torqued to 17NM.  Use one of these to fit then remove;

http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_1000_fazer/04-05/picture/oil_filter_wrench/

personally I go OE with Silkolene Comp 4. 

Hiflo and super4 for me. Comp 4 is fully synth, OTT I'd say for road use, and if you must make sure you have some miles on the bike before you start filling it with fully synth as can polish bores which leads to a bike that burns oil.

 What utter bollocks Yamaha supply bikes with fully synth in them from new matey

[Frosties]

So, are we saying that new Yamaha's come fitted with forged pistons which don't need mating to the cylinder ???


I'd have thought a new engine would at least need semi synth to aid the running in with the mineral oil properties.................or am I stuck in a time warp 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

What utter bollocks Yamaha supply bikes with fully synth in them from new matey

Nope.  Anyway why would they do that when the oil is ditched at 600 miles?   Doh!

This is the Fazer forum, so this discussion is probably irrelevant considering the age of our bikes.  But it is a long standing known issue that bikes run in gently and then filled with fully synth after the 600 mile service can end up with polished bores.  Polished bores mean a bike that burns oil as the piston rings have failed to bed in.

Talking of "utter bollocks", oil filters, your thin paint, low grade steel and pain to remove claims on hiflo filters?  Based on? 

[celticdog]

I've stopped using the K&N oil filters now. I've heard of a few cases where they fail and leak. The bit with the nut attached fails and they leak everywhere. Happened to a mate on his Speed Triple whilst zooming round the alps! Was super lucky to both not lose it on the trail of leaking oil or seize up his engine... Some reckon they fail if you try to tighten them with the nut (which you should do anyway), but my mate certainly didn't do that. Dunno, could have just been a bad batch going round. Either way, I wouldn't want to take the risk.

My last one i had of the K&N version leaked exactly as you described, and i only put it on hand tight without attempting to use the daft sizeless nut.

That's bad news and not what you'd expect from such a well known and rated supplier. I've been using yamaha filters but i'm going to give hi-flo a try.

[Gnasher]

So, are we saying that new Yamaha's come fitted with forged pistons which don't need mating to the cylinder ???


I'd have thought a new engine would at least need semi synth to aid the running in with the mineral oil properties.................or am I stuck in a time warp 

Modern say mid 80's on engines are machined to far higher tolerances, also the use of improved and advanced materials and coatings (86 GSXR1100's had teflon coated bores) and semi synth and fully synth oils have all helped increase power, reduce wight, massively increase reliability, reduce wear.  Running an "engine in" is pretty much a waste of time since late 90's, running in by definition is fine machining, which wasn't possible with older materials, machining.   First services are really to check for ancillaries, brakes, hoses, fastenings etc, changing the oil is a formality in fact you now have to pay for it, years back it was free as it had to be done, now it's another way of making money out of you!  Up until say 20 years ago car engines lagged behind bikes, but not any more they're right up there often ahead why, same as above plus emissions and just look at the service. intervals 20k.  Bikes for years were exempt from emission testing at the point of manufacture (they still are at MOT but not for much longer) but not anymore since about 03 which is why the crab Fazer had to go. 


Things have been moving on for some years!!                   

[mtread]

'' the crab Fazer had to go''
Sideways?

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Running an "engine in" is pretty much a waste of time since late 90's, running in by definition is fine machining, which wasn't possible with older materials, machining.

  Expect that pretty much all the bike manufacturers recommend it, and not just for 600 miles.  And no running in is not fine machining.
Bollocks indeed.

[robbo]

A pal of mine owned a Kawasaki dealership until retiring around 2005. They used a specific grade of oil for the first 600 miles, or whatever the mileage was for the first service. I remember they used Rock Oil and the drums in the workshop were clearly marked to avoid any confusion.

[Gnasher]

What utter bollocks      Yamaha supply bikes with fully synth in them from new matey [/quote]Nope.  Anyway why would they do that when the oil is ditched at 600 miles?   Doh!

Because you now pay for a first service and the oil and have been doing so for some time now it used to be free I wonder why..................... Doh

This is the Fazer forum, so this discussion is probably irrelevant considering the age of our bikes.  But it is a long standing known issue that bikes run in gently and then filled with fully synth after the 600 mile service can end up with polished bores.  Polished bores mean a bike that burns oil as the piston rings have failed to bed in.

Crap utter crap old school and old habits   Modern say mid 80's on engines are machined to far higher tolerances, also the use of improved and advanced materials and coatings (86 GSXR1100's had teflon coated bores) and semi synth and fully synth oils have all helped increase power, reduce wight, massively increase reliability, reduce wear.  Running an "engine in" is pretty much a waste of time since late 90's, running in by definition is fine machining, which wasn't possible with older materials, machining.  Running an engine at low fixed revs will not help they need varying revs.  Pistons rings don't need to bed in haven't for years, out of date practices not required with newer materials.

Talking of "utter bollocks", oil filters, your thin paint, low grade steel and pain to remove claims on hiflo filters?  Based on?

I've supplied/fitted 100's of Hiflo filters over the years they don't last outwardly as long as OE, they are cheaper because they are not the same quality of materials.  They still filter to the same standard that's why they've got TUV./font]

[Gnasher]

Running an "engine in" is pretty much a waste of time since late 90's, running in by definition is fine machining, which wasn't possible with older materials, machining.

  Expect that pretty much all the bike manufacturers recommend it, and not just for 600 miles.  And no running in is not fine machining.
Bollocks indeed.

  you clearly have absolutely no idea what your talking about, you've not changed at all matey last time it was Poppies 

[Gnasher]

A pal of mine owned a Kawasaki dealership until retiring around 2005. They used a specific grade of oil for the first 600 miles, or whatever the mileage was for the first service. I remember they used Rock Oil and the drums in the workshop were clearly marked to avoid any confusion.

It's not that they don't change the oil it's that they don't really need to, hence why they now charge for it.  Changing the oil isn't going to do any harm nor is not changing it, if owners what to that's their choice.  Using Rock oil or any other is just what the manufacturer is in partnership with at the time, Yamaha used to be Mobile, now it's Yam lube, Kawasaki I think is now Fuchs.


If you go to Silkolene's web site search oil by bike FSZ600 will come up as suitable for "all" their that is 10/40w I wonder why!!!!!   

[unfazed]

What happened to this thread, I thought it was about oil filters 

[Dudeofrude]

What happened to this thread, I thought it was about oil filters 

Its still is... vaguely. But as with any internet based conversation there's a good dose of arguing and drama thrown in for good measure.... on that note I'm nearly out if popcorn...... as you were 😉😅

[Gnasher]

What happened to this thread, I thought it was about oil filters 

A certain person as usual wanted to argue and throw it off track 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 

A certain person as usual wanted to argue and throw it off track 

It’s no me that started making bold unsubstantiated claims.  Nor is it I that claims to know beter than the boffins that design our bikes.  Nor is it I that after making such silly claims started calling others names because they didn’t agree.
 

But as with any internet based conversation there's a good dose of arguing and drama thrown in for good measure.... on that note I'm nearly out if popcorn...... as you were 😉😅

 
Indeed, and it’s the same topics that come up again and again, with people making the same wild unsubstantiated claims.  Anyway;


Two things happen when you run an engine in;


Conformability – is the initial wear as components wear to fit each other better.
Surface finishing – the surface alterations that occur at microscopic levels when two surfaces pass over each other.


Plain bearings however are fine, no real conforming or finishing takes place.  The key changes that take place concern the pistons and bores. 



One thing that happens on running a bike in is that you alter the piston and bore surfaces.  You want the initial jagged machined surface to form in plateaus and valleys.  The plateaus bear load and the valleys hold oil.  You want the right balance of plateau to valley to form in your bores.


An engine is generally considered run in after 500 miles, but the process is not considered fully complete ie full surface stabilisation, for around 5000 miles.


Fully synthetic oils can interfere with the surface stabilisation process, and even lead to the formation of lacquer and high temperature varnish on low mileage machines.  That means you will end up with a bike that’s a little down on full power and will burn a certain amount of oil. 



If you look at http://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia/products/motorcycle-and-scooters/engine-oils/power1-brand/power1.html

Notice that Castrol Power One GPS;
Promotes longer engine life by minimising the formulation of lacquer, sludge, carbon deposits and high temperature varnish, ensuring outstanding engine cleanliness under the most severe service conditions.

They don’t make the same claim for fully synth Power 1 racing.

Note also they state their semi-synth is suitable for those engaged in motorsports.

Basically these oils have slightly different properties.  The semi-synth should be used for at least the first 10,000 miles on a road bike, and frankly is probably the better performing oil for everyday non-racing use.

To sum up – run your bike in as per manufactures recommendation but don’t be too gentle.  Make sure you use semi synth for the first 10,000 miles.

[lew600fazer]

Hiflo are TUV approved and will perform to the same standard as OE, but they're of a lesser quality i.e. the paint is thinner and the steel is lower grade, therefore they rust much quicker, they can also be pigs to get off at times.

HIflo, according to their web site have been making OEM filters since 1963.  I've been using em for quite a few years now, it seems to be to be the same quality as the Yamaha marked product.

Should be torqued to 17NM.  Use one of these to fit then remove;

http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/fzs_1000_fazer/04-05/picture/oil_filter_wrench/

personally I go OE with Silkolene Comp 4. 

Hiflo and super4 for me. Comp 4 is fully synth, OTT I'd say for road use, and if you must make sure you have some miles on the bike before you start filling it with fully synth as can polish bores which leads to a bike that burns oil.

The only tool you need for fitting an oil filter

[darrsi]

I was wondering about the suggestion of 17Nm for an oil filter being rather excessive, bearing in mind exhaust header nuts for example are only 12Nm and suffer from vibration?
No need at all to go that tight, in fact i didn't even consider that there was a torque setting, i always thought common sense would suffice, and if it dripped it needed nipping up a bit.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Dunno.

I can't get 17NM oot o ma hand on a filter - not on my Fazer anyway.
The other thing I find is, my hands are oily and the filter is often oily so it's difficult to get fully hand tight at all.
Also once with my car I thought it had started to burn oil, nope, I didn't get the filter on tight enougth by hand - doh!
I just don't want oil dripping from the bike filter cos I figure I know where it might just end up.
So there's an offical figure, I've got a set of good quality torque wrenches lying there, so I just torque it on.
Never had a problem getting them back off (apart from one on a car I bought but it wisnae me that put it on)

17NM is only 12 lbs-ft in English.  It's not a lot anyway.

[mtread]

''It's not that they don't change the oil it's that they don't really need to''
Are you suggesting that the engine as it comes out of the  factory contains no contaminants whatsoever? That the engine is assembled in perfectly sterile conditions, and that machining causes no residual material at all? We're not just talking about the bores here. The oil circulates around all parts of the engine, gearbox etc.
Of course it needs to be drained and replaced.

[Frosties]

Dunno.

I can't get 17NM oot o ma hand on a filter - not on my Fazer anyway.
The other thing I find is, my hands are oily and the filter is often oily so it's difficult to get fully hand tight at all.
Also once with my car I thought it had started to burn oil, nope, I didn't get the filter on tight enougth by hand - doh!
I just don't want oil dripping from the bike filter cos I figure I know where it might just end up.
So there's an offical figure, I've got a set of good quality torque wrenches lying there, so I just torque it on.
Never had a problem getting them back off (apart from one on a car I bought but it wisnae me that put it on)

17NM is only 12 lbs-ft in English.  It's not a lot anyway.

Which is why I agree with Lew on fitting filters. Use one of these to remove filters for years

[Gnasher]

''It's not that they don't change the oil it's that they don't really need to''
Are you suggesting that the engine as it comes out of the  factory contains no contaminants whatsoever? That the engine is assembled in perfectly sterile conditions, and that machining causes no residual material at all? We're not just talking about the bores here. The oil circulates around all parts of the engine, gearbox etc.

Mate it's an engine made in a factory "sterile conditions" behave yourself     Look engines and their manufacture has improved leaps and bounds in recent years, they are all cleaned and assembled in clean conditions, because of material now used and machining techniques components are manufactured to very fine tolerances, which in turn means almost no running in i.e. partials of metal being worn away thus transferring to the oil.


This is why oil had I repeat HAD to be changed as these partials would damaged the engine if left, you don't get this any longer yes there are some but it's extremely little.  If you buy a new car you don't take it back at 600 miles to get the oil changed...do you why...............yep because it don't need changing as I said earlier 20k service intervals, car and bike engines/gear boxes etc aren't to dissimilar these days. The main difference and why car service intervals are so much longer than bikes is most bikes use the shame oil to lub the gearbox, which exerts shearing action, this breaks down oil faster hence greatly reduce service intervals.  The bike industry is much smaller and of course they're not going to give away a money spinner of now CHARGING you for the 600 mile service..........................  
[/size]

        [/size]
Of course it needs to be drained and replaced.

[/size]Yes of course it needs changing just not at 600 miles...............................   if you the owner wants to change your oil every 2k (I know some do) fill you'r boots all you're doing is throwing money down the drain and making increased sales for oil company's and not help the environment. [size=78%]


Right that my last word on this one, have a nice day.

[mtread]

But they make hardly any money on the oil - £10? Most of the dealer's profit is on servicing. Which is usually free for the first service.....

[Gnasher]

Which is usually free for the first service.....

No mate you now have to pay for a first service or so I'm told 



This is really my last