My Fazer is incontinent :(

[Tiercel]

For the past few days shes been drip, drip, dripping oil in a bad way.


From what I can tell, its coming from the oil sump gasket, it appears to be leaking from/around the front-most left side allen bolt that holds the sump in place (looking from the rear of the bike). I assumed because its nearly 13 years old and just done 35k on the original gasket thats not bad going and its due replacing. So I spent this afternoon fixing it. Changed the gasket for a new one, cleaned everything up nicely, put it all back together and did a full oil change...




And its still bloody leaking 


So its not the gasket... its a not sump loose everything is torqued correctly, I cant find any obvious damage or reason for why its still leaking?! What am I missing? I cant see any possible place it could be leaking from, its all tightly sealed up.

[tommyardin]

Hi sorry to hear about your incontinent Fazer.
This is just a thought, on the very front of the engine, above the oil filter is an external oil pipe that takes a hammering from the weather and road grim and they rust into pin holes and leak, gravity comes into play and the oil will ends up over the lower front of the engine.


Check this out:
Short length of small bore metal pipe with a union on each end can be seen roughly centre of picture, you will note that mine has started to pickle a bit with rust, 

[daviee]

post up some picture it might help us figure it out

[darrsi]

Wait until it's dark, or with the bike in a dark garage, use a torch to have a look, the oil will shine up with the light making it easier to see where it's leaking from.

[Bretty]

You've just got to get it up on the centre stand, on some blocks of wood and get your head under there with a torch. We can all have a guess...

There's an oil sensor built into the sump cover? There are a load of o-ring seals behind the sprocket cover? The sump plug itself can leak....

[Tiercel]

So a good dig around underneath it later hasnt turned up much new Good call on the external oil pipe, I wasnt aware of that, but it doesnt seem to be the problem. Its caked in black gunk but nicely dried on, theres no signs of oil leaking through it and making the gunk wet or washing it away like it did on the oil sump. When I started, the sump was caked in about a decades worth black road gunk, as I had it off I scrubbed it down with meths and WD40 to get it mostly clean and easier to see any oil.


Pics wise:
 
Heres the main culprit, this is taken from the front of the bike, thats the kickstand mechanism in the background on the right hand side to give you an idea of where youre looking.



Big fat drop of oil just about to fall off. To me it looks like its coming from around that Allen bolt, it seems to be the only area thats significantly "wet" looking.






The rest of the sump and gasket looks dry, brand new oil filter, no leaking from the filter or oil cooler either by the look of it.





Looking at it from this side, theres perhaps a little bit of oil here too? This is taken by the gear lever.

[daviee]

first thing i notice is your oil filter is leaking at the join to the cooler are you sure its not coming from that you need to get contact /brake cleaner on to get it spotless and oil free firs so you can see where its coming from

[Tiercel]

That might just be the lighting, I can see what you might think is oil glistening but its bone dry in person. It was caked in black gunky crap as well, its had a good scrub with WD40 and a dish brush.

[Bretty]

Good effort with the photos!

It might be worth pulling off the sprocket cover. As there are 3 seals behind that which would leak down into this area (around kick stand).

Sprocket drive shaft seal, gear selector rod seal and clutch push rod seal. Loads of crap can get behind the sprocket cover and damage these seals.

[His Dudeness]

Get yourself a can of brake clean it's magic stuff for getting oil off and it dries with no residue so you should see where the leak is coming from. Wd40 is oil so using it is going to make finding the leak difficult.

[celticdog]

Is that a hairline crack in the allen bolt recess? (red circle). Chemical metal filler might be a way forward if it is.

[tommyardin]

If the bike is left on the side stand any leaking oil will migrate to the left bottom of the engine cos that the way shes leaning.

[Tiercel]

Is that a hairline crack in the allen bolt recess? (red circle). Chemical metal filler might be a way forward if it is.

Not sure, I think its just a smear of cleanliness amongst the dirt though Ill have a closer proper look.


Typically this has all happened on my long shifts week at work so Ive got next to no time to tinker and have a proper go at the bike


Also turns out that the new sump plug bolt didnt fit properly and that was leaking like a bugger, serves me right for getting cheap eBay parts. Ordered a proper OEM one and put the old half rounded off one back on for now.


Next place to check is those seals behind the sprocket, but for now Ill just have to limp it to and from work gingerly and keep topping it up until the weekend when I can have a proper day off on it

[darrsi]

Did you order one of those shite half length magnetic bolts perchance?


I made that mistake, then found out that an OEM one on the AJ Sutton site was really cheap. Probably one of the few parts that is cheap to be honest.

[Tiercel]

Thats exactly the one I ordered. I assumed an OEM bolt would be expensive. Turns out its £2 from my local Yam dealer. Compared to £6 for a stupid magnetic half length one.    The washer costs more than the bolt bizarrely.

[celticdog]

Thats exactly the one I ordered. I assumed an OEM bolt would be expensive. Turns out its £2 from my local Yam dealer. Compared to £6 for a stupid magnetic half length one.    The washer costs more than the bolt bizarrely.

Sounds like you're making progress with this fella. You can pick up those copper crush washers fairly cheaply or you can reuse, I've not replaced mine the last 3 oil changes.

[darrsi]

Thats exactly the one I ordered. I assumed an OEM bolt would be expensive. Turns out its £2 from my local Yam dealer. Compared to £6 for a stupid magnetic half length one.    The washer costs more than the bolt bizarrely.

Sounds like you're making progress with this fella. You can pick up those copper crush washers fairly cheaply or you can reuse, I've not replaced mine the last 3 oil changes.

There's so much thread on an OEM sump bolt that a new washer is not massively important. It's only plugging a hole, and not under any stress at all.
The main thing is that it simply just needs nipping up, rather than over wrenching.


Those new shorter than OEM magnetic bolts that are all over Ebay should be avoided though.
Because they are so much shorter in length when i nipped it up it literally pulled the first 3 or 4 threads out of my sump.
After that initial "oh shit" feeling i plugged it with the old bolt again until a new one arrived, and luckily there was plenty of thread left for it to tighten up and be secure again.
Why they made that bolt so much shorter is just odd?

[crickleymal]

Not sure, I think its just a smear of cleanliness amongst the dirt though Ill have a closer proper look.

 

[Tiercel]

Ok so, I had the sprocket cover off and everything behind there is fine, brake cleanered all the gunky crap off and its totally bone dry not a hint of leaking oil from any of the seals. So thats another potential ticked off.


Whilst I was down there, I checked this again.



 
Ive had the bike on the centre stand for a few days now, and its still leaking from exactly the same spot. Blew the oil away with brake cleaner and kitchen roll, and you can see it slowly build up again in the recess of that allen bolt, cleaned it away again to make sure, and sure enough it builds back up again. So Im now 99% sure this is the culprit. Now to find out *why*


Theres no obvious damage to the bolt or surrounding case. One of my friends suggested it might be missing a washer, but theres 14 bolts holding the sump on and none of them have washers, I refuse to accept that even the most amatuer of home mechanics who owned it before me could have possibly forgot to put all 14 back on... Does anyone know if theres meant to be washers there?


So my next idea is to take that bolt out and see if it pisses out oil everywhere... and if not, to PTFE tape the bolt and see if that seals it up.



Ive had a measuring jug underneath the bike catching the leak for a few days too, seems to be losing somewhere in the region of 50-100ml overnight, assuming thats constant when its parked up at work too Im looking at around worst case scenario of 200ml of oil loss a day, that seems like a lot to be coming from one tiny little bolt.

[Bretty]

Where in the world are you?
I have an old engine sat outside in bits, I'm pretty sure the  sump plate is sat there if you want it. In NW London.

[tommyardin]

Hi Tiercel,
The picture that you posted above seems to be the same picture that you posted a few days ago, but your post leads us to believe it it a different picture taken since you used brake cleaner and kitchen roll on it, I think you have re-posted the old picture and not the one you have taken since the clean up.
I have re-attached both of your pictures to this post for side by side comparison.

There is a mark on the sump near that allen screw that looks like it could be a crack, but you say you have checked it out so maybe it is just a coincidence.

I find it hard to understand how engine oil could leak out of the bolt hole, as I believe (Seems logical) the bolt holes are bottomed holes, unless of course the inside the sump or the engine block itself has a bit of material broken away forming a passageway for the oil to pass into the bolt hole, but that seems highly unlikely.

Back to your pictures, please see the circled part in pic 'sump2.jpg' it looks like a crack in the sump, but if you have given it a thorough clean and check it can't be.

[Tiercel]

Whoops I attached the wrong pic!But yes thats the area Im looking at.Speaking of which, I had a breakthrough whilst trying PTFE tape on the bolt as per friend's suggestion. When I put the bolt back in, wrapped in PTFE tape  as it was slightly tighter/wider fit I noticed some oil being pushed out of something as I screwed the bolt back in, on closer inspection and much fiddling - there is indeed a hairline fracture that runs quite a long way around that corner of the sump, well spotted in those photos because that looks like its one end of the crack, it runs from there, around the entire circumference of the bolt recess, and down the left side of the sump for a few cm. So looks like its new sump time! Which brings me onto this lovely gentleman's post:

Where in the world are you? have an old engine sat outside in bits, I'm pretty sure the  sump plate is sat there if you want it. In NW London

I'm in Croydon, SW London, and that would be bloody lovely if you did have one lying around <3

[tommyardin]

Hey! a result, I am really pleased for you and it looks like you have a donor sump as well.

[Bretty]

In West Hampstead. Send me a PM. Yours if you want it.
needs a clean, no gasket and you'll need to transfer over your sensor. Sump plug looks in good condition. This was part of a donor engine I bought, with knackered top end. I stole the gearbox out of it and was left with bits.

[tommyardin]

Hey how lucky is that you guys are less than 20 miles from each other