Date: 24-08-17  Time: 01:57 AM

Author Topic: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares  (Read 1369 times)

Simon.Pieman

  • Club Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
  • Life of Pie
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #25 on: 15 March 2017, 11:32:51 AM »
Just a note on your front end 'clunking'. It's worth noting that most bikes with telescopic forks need to be tweaked up correctly when the forks have been removed and refitted.

The way I do it, is to put all front end back on then (maybe do a few miles to settle all the variables) then slacken off the lower clamping bolts (leave the top tight) and carefully compress and decompress the forks a few times. Then with the forks compress nip the bottom clamps back up. This always cures clunking for me and is to do with the fact that the headstock bearings are tapered and need be squared-up (probably a few seconds of angle into a trapezoid, viewed side on).


Er, surely the bearings should be 'squared up' using the adjusting nuts, On taper bearings make sure the cones are set properly in the head then when you insert the stem and races you slightly overtighten and then back off until the bearing moves freely without any play. This would pre-empt any nasty clunking, which to me sounds like a good way to damage the bearings.
 What you describe above sounds sorta like a way of trueing up the fork tubes -not the bearings, heaven forbid. An easy way to untwist fork tubes/yokes is to slacken off wheel spindle and clamps and gently bump the front wheel square with a wall, then get a mate to tighten everything up whilst you hold the bike steady.

tex

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 600
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - tdr 250
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #26 on: 15 March 2017, 12:08:13 PM »



 I can recommend race engineering in great dunmow  they could set up or fix,  had mine set up there.
the night i was born, lord the moon stood a fire red., my poor mother her crying,
she said the gypsy was right, and she fell right dead

tommyardin

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,587
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #27 on: 15 March 2017, 01:38:04 PM »
Regarding checking the airgap,you can only do this with a collapsed fork leg with the spring removed.One thing I struggled wirh a few months ago,and posted the problem on here, was that I found it impossible to maintain the stated airgap as well as having anything like the correct amount of fork oil.In the end I rang a main dealer whose mechanic said they would only concentrate on the correct volume of oil and not bother achieving he correct airgap.I can't remember the actual figures but would have had to remove something like 35cc of oil to get the correct gap.Pity you're not a bit nearer or I'd come and give you a hand.






My understanding is also as Robbo has said, the forks need to be collapsed

Ie: Stanchions/Legs right down into the Sliders/Fork Bottoms and the spring and all internals removed (With the exception of the Damper Rods of course) before taking the air gap measurement, you can not check the air gap with the forks extended and internals all in place.

Part of the air gap is the displacement of all the internals including springs, if you collapse the forks and do you air gap test with the internals in place your forks will be really short of oil when extended, resulting in bottoming out on larger bumps.

Alternatively if you do set your air gap with the forks extended, you will over fill them, and will end up suffering with a form of Hydro Lock, which will lock the forks up solid resulting in little or no suspension movement what-so-ever, or best case scenario really harsh action.

The oil needs a space to transfer to when your forks compress, the oil passes or is 'jetted' through the holes in the Damper Rods (emulators if you have them fitted) but needs somewhere to go, if the fork tubes are over filled there is no space for that jetted oil and forks lock up (oil does not compress like air)

it is important to get the air gap or fork oil capacity right, I even had to take into account the fact that I was placing cartridge emulators in my forks and reduce the oil capacity by a couple of millilitres each leg to take these into account.  I ended up with 475 millilitres of 17.5 weight oil in each fork leg on my FZS 600 with the emulators set at 3 full turns from initial emulator spring contact.

What amazed me more than anything about front forks is how they are impacted by the rear suspension.
If you have poor rear suspension the front will never be right, you will never get the best out of you forks.

Hit a bump whilst in a bend with a shot or soft back shocker the back of the bike dips harshly at the same time as the swinging arm rises., causing the front of the bike to rise and the tyre to run light on the road, the last thing you want mid bend.

Kebab19 is the man to look up in here, he has many posts with regard to front suspension and these posts have been so helpful to me and my modding of the front end.
Devilsyam is the man according to what I hear (Never spoken to the guy myself) but apparently what he doesn't know about the rear end of the Fazer is not worth knowing.
Sorry for such a long post but her-in-doors says I'm a old gas bag.  But this stuff is important if you are going to get the best from your bike, if the bike handle poorly you will not be inspired to ride it as much. 

Little update:

It's playtime
if you place one hand on top of the other put a little upward pressure on the lower hand and a little downward pressure on the upper hand (pressing them together) now raise your elbows do that they are horizontal or roughly level with your shoulders, now your right arm is you swing arm on your bike, your left arm is the front end of your bike, jerk your right elbow downwards, that's the action you get when the swing arm rapidly compresses your rear shocker and the swing arm lifts lifts up, the wheel rises and the back of the bike has to drop to keep contact with the road. when you do this rapid dropping action with your right elbow, see what happen to your left elbow, that is the front of your bike, you have now lost a lot of contact with the road, the front wheel is running light and the whole geometry of the bike has changed. The back end really does effect the front.
Compression, Rebound and Sag all need to be right, at both ends of the bike.

Now shut the f--k up tommy and go out and ride the bike in the sunshine.
Gone         
« Last Edit: 15 March 2017, 08:57:00 PM by tommyardin »
Don't mess with the guy if the guy don't mess with you.

tommyardin

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,587
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #28 on: 15 March 2017, 09:17:40 PM »
Had a great little ride out this afternoon in the sunshine, did not go far, about 14 miles I guess, down to a local lake and took some piccys of the Baby FSZ in the sunshine, turning around, visiting some friend for a chin wag and a cup of tea before going home and booking my families trip to St Louis to visit my Son (Jack) at the end of May this year.
London HR to Chicago O'hare to St Louis, Missouri.

Not been State-side since 1998 so looking forward to it, just going for 12 days as her-in-doors has to get back for school half term re-starting, no she not a school girl she a teacher, she gets a week half term and the college have given her a weeks sort of sabbatical as she has worked in the same college for 32 years.

Woo woo! look out America.    :guitar   Duelling banjos   :2guns  Guns, and we all know about the red necks :moon

tommy  :eek



« Last Edit: 15 March 2017, 09:52:19 PM by tommyardin »
Don't mess with the guy if the guy don't mess with you.

Graham53

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - FZS 600 foxeye
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #29 on: 16 March 2017, 04:30:07 PM »
Thanks for all the replies guys sorry for late Reply but been laid up in bed with man flu ( the worst kind ) and especially to Robbo for the offer of help  :)  it is quite a trot over to me from Surrey but I appreciate the offer.
I'll probably give Race engineering a call if they can do earlier than the end of May like MTC I might give em a try.
It seems the racing season is putting a long wait for decent services as I've booked the bike it for carb cleaning and set up at Sparklight Racing for beginning April and that was a struggle due to work for race teams.
I think I know now that the springs were fitted badly/wrong as trying to adjust rebound damping is nearly impossible as the screws are so tight which doesn't sound normal so might just get the OE springs put back in.


tommyardin

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,587
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #30 on: 17 March 2017, 09:24:05 AM »
i need some handling help badly  :'(
I fitted Luke's R6 shock .... all good handling improved but thought it could be better so I ended up getting a garage to fit hagon progressives, I weighed up linear but as I'm going to be doing a fair bit of touring I went for progressives as a compromise. On getting it back coming on M25 it felt twitchy at high speeds and on getting home tyre pressures were 44front 48 rear (garage said they were low and did them ) so I put back to 36/42 and it was like running on flats and weaved so I upped them a bit to 40/44 and it improved, today I went out to see if it was suspension settings causing it so put back to 36/42 ( with my own new gauge ) and slowly bit by bit went through every combination of suspension settings but the front preload will not go to its softest setting it goes to 4 and a little bit then stops.
In all settings the front is like a pogo stick and On some settings it judders over even tiny bumps so hard my hands come off the bars, it was never like this standard so have the hagons been fitted wrongly ? What else could they have done to cause this, it gives no confidence in slower corners and feels like I'm tucking the front, it also feels like it's pulling to the right ( all settings even ) and in medium speed corners it feels like the front is under steering.
I had hel lines fitted at same time and now when pulling brake lever I get clunking( checked steering head bearing play and felt ok ) which I never had before and throw in the carburation problems I may or may not be having ( went to start after going in a shop and it backfired and every time it starts now there's very strong smell of fuel and difficult to start without handful of throttle ) and I'm about ready to throw in the towel with this bike and I'm wishing I got an FZ1 instead.
If anyone has any ideas please let me know


Just reading Graham's post above again.


Makes me wonder, It is just a thought.

There are ordinary washer type spacers in the forks, one in each leg (On the FZS 600) they are approximately a 35 mm diameter metal washer with a perhaps 20mm hole in the centre of them, also there is a solid 35 mm washer type disk with no hole in it (Plain disk), again one in each leg, the plain disk goes on to the top of the tube spring spacer, and the yoke mounted Pre-Load adjuster pushes down on the top of the solid spacer disk and compresses the spring Ie: Pre-Load.

The hollow washer goes under the spring, as it allows oil to pass through the hole and not form a barrier.

If the washer and disk in one leg are the right way around, but, visa versa in the other leg the Pre-load adjuster will pass through the hole in the incorrectly placed hollow washer and apply no compression to the spring. Ie: No Pre-load, also the solid washer could form a barrier at the base of the spring stopping the free flow of oil that is needed when the forks are under compression from hitting undulations in the road, or even stop the forks from plunging as far as they should.

These are just the ramblings and thoughts on the subject, and, could very well be way off the mark, but it is a thought.

But bearing in mind that I am talking from the point of understanding how the forks work on an FZS 600 with Damper Rod type of forks.
Not sure if the Mighty Thou is Damper Rod or Cartridge Forks.   
« Last Edit: 17 March 2017, 09:38:20 AM by tommyardin »
Don't mess with the guy if the guy don't mess with you.

tommyardin

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,587
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #31 on: 17 March 2017, 09:37:40 AM »
Also Aftermarket springs are not always the exact same length as the original springs, if they are longer than the originals then the tube spacers needs to be cut down accordingly, if they are shorter you need to add 35 MM Penny washers to the top of the spring to make up that shortfall, remembering to place the solid disk washer type spacer at the top for pre-load contact.


Below is a link for the correct sized Penny Washers.  35 mm washers with a 12 mm hole


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181741976153?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=480688381162&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Don't mess with the guy if the guy don't mess with you.

Graham53

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - FZS 600 foxeye
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #32 on: 17 March 2017, 02:10:09 PM »
Also Aftermarket springs are not always the exact same length as the original springs, if they are longer than the originals then the tube spacers needs to be cut down accordingly, if they are shorter you need to add 35 MM Penny washers to the top of the spring to make up that shortfall, remembering to place the solid disk washer type spacer at the top for pre-load contact.


Below is a link for the correct sized Penny Washers.  35 mm washers with a 12 mm hole


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181741976153?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=480688381162&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I looked up the Hagon and it says that if any spacers are required to fit correctly they are supplied, I assume although not seen them that hagons are longer but the box is bigger than the OE springs returned to me (thankfully I asked for them back !!) I have also been searching around the interweb and come across a post from years ago on here where someone points out that although Yamaha manual states there are 5 preload settings he's had 3 gen 1's and on all the those bikes the adjuster settings go to 4 and a half marks on the adjuster so all sounds normal on the preload.
Many thanks to Tefer who through a contact has got me a number of someone who is reputable near to me whom Im going to call soon and hopefully sort out these progressives or put back the OE Springs until I go to MTC for the linears at the end of May.

b1k3rdude

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,116
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - GSF 1200 S
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #33 on: 17 March 2017, 08:14:19 PM »
air gap and oil
I second checking this, I would also check oil weight Hagon want to go with thier spring (I would have thought the same as stock)

Ricky

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 92
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares
« Reply #34 on: 13 August 2017, 12:00:50 AM »
Hi Graham  how was the trip home?has the bike improved? Has Mike's  suspension mods helped?