Date: 29-03-24  Time: 10:42 am

Author Topic: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution  (Read 3289 times)

FZ1obp

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FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« on: 05 March 2017, 02:00:12 pm »
Needed to change the rear disc on the Gen 2 FZ1 and had been warned that it can be difficult to get the bolts undone.....

So soaked the threads in Plus Gas, froze the bolts (instead of warming the hub) to shrink them down, tapped them with large diameter pin punch to upset them and then tried to undo them...

2 undid ok, 2 T40 heads snapped off flush in the bolt heads and couldn't be removed, the other snapped off but did come out. What to do as the T40 heads are too hard to drill?

So welded M16 nuts to the bold heads and they undid fine with no damage to the hub (serious thermal shock helped). Not sure what else I could have done - may also work for the front discs as I've heard that the whole wheel gets thrown away if they can't get the bolts out.

The design of the bolt heads is wrong - the ratio of the T40 diameter to the bolt diameter means if the bolt is at all seized it's then very likely the T40 will fail - I used reasonably quality T40 heads...
« Last Edit: 05 March 2017, 02:01:03 pm by FZ1obp »

PaulSmith

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #1 on: 07 March 2017, 12:58:08 pm »
I don't think freezing the bolts is generally considered a good idea because it can make the bolts more brittle. 

slimwilly

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #2 on: 23 March 2017, 10:11:42 pm »
Ha !!!
I did this to my ten year old Fz1s this week, no luck with allen type key,snapped that in one,so got the hammer and chisel and chipped at them until they started to turn,so then welded bolts onto two of them, got them all out, only one is re-useable, so today 6 rear and 5 new front oem bolts arrived from We-moto, so disk back on with greased bolts,,thefronts are good, had them off a few times when putting the wet wheels in
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Rob

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #3 on: 24 March 2017, 05:11:14 pm »
Ha !!!
I did this to my ten year old Fz1s this week, no luck with allen type key,snapped that in one,so got the hammer and chisel and chipped at them until they started to turn,so then welded bolts onto two of them, got them all out, only one is re-useable, so today 6 rear and 5 new front oem bolts arrived from We-moto, so disk back on with greased bolts,,thefronts are good, had them off a few times when putting the wet wheels in
       




i wouldn't grease these bolts,  you should loctite them.

teecee90

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #4 on: 24 March 2017, 08:57:56 pm »
Did you use an impact driver?



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FZ1obp

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #5 on: 25 March 2017, 01:01:05 pm »
Hi Rob

No luck with the impact driver either - T40 isn't the best ever design!

tommyardin

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #6 on: 25 March 2017, 11:57:36 pm »
Needed to change the rear disc on the Gen 2 FZ1 and had been warned that it can be difficult to get the bolts undone.....

So soaked the threads in Plus Gas, froze the bolts (instead of warming the hub) to shrink them down, tapped them with large diameter pin punch to upset them and then tried to undo them...

2 undid ok, 2 T40 heads snapped off flush in the bolt heads and couldn't be removed, the other snapped off but did come out. What to do as the T40 heads are too hard to drill?

So welded M16 nuts to the bold heads and they undid fine with no damage to the hub (serious thermal shock helped). Not sure what else I could have done - may also work for the front discs as I've heard that the whole wheel gets thrown away if they can't get the bolts out.

The design of the bolt heads is wrong - the ratio of the T40 diameter to the bolt diameter means if the bolt is at all seized it's then very likely the T40 will fail - I used reasonably quality T40 heads...


Hi FZ1obp,
In your second picture it looks like there is red Locktite (Not sure what number the red Loctite is) on the screws you got out, but I understood that you should never use lock thread compound on any fixings that go into alloy threads, I'm not saying you did it, but it looks like someone did, a little bit of silicon grease or copper-slip is the best bet with steel fixings into alloy. just saying trying to be helpful  :thumbup

PaulSmith

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #7 on: 27 March 2017, 04:45:01 pm »
...
Hi FZ1obp,
In your second picture it looks like there is red Locktite (Not sure what number the red Loctite is) on the screws you got out, but I understood that you should never use lock thread compound on any fixings that go into alloy threads, I'm not saying you did it, but it looks like someone did, a little bit of silicon grease or copper-slip is the best bet with steel fixings into alloy. just saying trying to be helpful  :thumbup
I think you might be mixing your metaphors.
Mixed metals can (over time) cause  a corrosion issue, and copper grease can reduce the impact because the copper corrodes first, but thread locking compound has no impact as it has no metal. The purpose of using silicon grease or copper grease is so you can undo bolts easily (and to reduce corrosion), while thread lock is for when you really, really don't want them coming lose. The bolts holding my brakes in place require threadlock, not grease.

tommyardin

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #8 on: 28 March 2017, 12:11:14 am »
Mixed metaphors????? What Metaphors?????

My post

Hi FZ1obp,In your second picture it looks like there is red Locktite (Not sure what number the red Loctite is) on the screws you got out, but I understood that you should never use lock thread compound on any fixings that go into alloy threads, I'm not saying you did it, but it looks like someone did, a little bit of silicon grease or copper-slip is the best bet with steel fixings into alloy. just saying trying to be helpful 

I never mentioned corrosion in my post (see above) all I said was 'I understood that you should never use lock thread compound on any fixings that go into alloy threads'

But if you feel you need to use it on your brakes parts then that's fine.

I think I will stick to copper slip on mine, firstly I have never had a bolt come undone because of cooper slip, if it is tightened up its tightened up, but when you want them to come out they usually do, without shearing off or screwing the threads up.
I realise you don't want all those bolts coming undone on your brakes, but like wise I don't suppose you want the spark plugs unscrewing and popping out at 60 mph, or the exhaust studs screwing out and the headers falling on to the road at speed or maybe the caliper mounting bolts falling out, I suppose Locite would work wonders on all of them.
Just one other thing I have never ever seen copper-slip corrode, in fact it acts as a barrier and helps stop any form of electrolysis, Ie: stops them corroding in.
Anyway as I said at the end of my post 'just saying trying to be helpful  '

If you really want to make sure they don't come loose you have a welder.

And if thread locking compound has no impact why use it, it does have impact it causes threads to shear off in alloy.
« Last Edit: 28 March 2017, 12:16:43 am by tommyardin »

tommyardin

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #9 on: 28 March 2017, 12:17:39 am »
Anyway fuck it, each to there own.
 :eek


Think I will have a break from Foc-U for a while, and spend some time upsetting all the drivers on the Toyota MR2 Owners Club. :lol
« Last Edit: 28 March 2017, 12:24:10 am by tommyardin »

Dustydes

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #10 on: 28 March 2017, 02:24:45 pm »

For me it's thread lock on brake bolts every time, but each to there own, I'm not getting involved in any argument.


http://www.loctite.co.uk/loctite-4087.htm?nodeid=8802623422465


LOCTITE 222   
         

                    Threadlocking Adhesive - low strength. Easy disassembly. Suitable for all metal threaded assemblies.                 
                LOCTITE 222 is a low-strength  threadlocker that allows the adjustment of screws including countersunk head screws and set screws. Good on low-strength metals which could fracture during disassembly, e.g. aluminium or brass. The product works on all metals, including passive substrates such as stainless steel, aluminium and plated surfaces. t is proven to be tolerant of minor contamination due to industrial oils, e.g. engine oils, corrosion prevention oils and cutting fluids.            
Your benefits              
  • Ideal for low-strength threadlocking of adjusting screws, countersunk head screws and set screws
  • Prevents loosening on vibrating assemblies, e.g. pumps, gear boxes or presses 
  • Permits disassembly with hand tools
  • Especially suited to small thread sizes
  • P1 NSF Reg. No.: 123002












You could always give them a ring :-)

PaulSmith

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Re: FZ1 - rear brake disc bolts, 'mare and solution
« Reply #11 on: 29 March 2017, 10:36:11 am »
...
I never mentioned corrosion in my post (see above) all I said was 'I understood that you should never use lock thread compound on any fixings that go into alloy threads'
...
But if you feel you need to use it on your brakes parts then that's fine.
...
Anyway as I said at the end of my post 'just saying trying to be helpful  '

If you really want to make sure they don't come loose you have a welder.

And if thread locking compound has no impact why use it, it does have impact it causes threads to shear off in alloy.
Helpful is fine, when it is helpful, but not so fine when you don't know what you are talking about and the advice you end up giving is dangerously wrong. You understood Locktite and alloy threads had a problem. You understood wrong. Locktite does not cause threads to shear, overtightening causes threads to shear, and greasing threads before attempting to torque them is  a great way to ensure they are overtightened. The only problem associated with alloy threads is galvanic corrosion, which is a potential risk when ever two dissimilar metals (alloy or otherwise) are in the presence of an electrolyte. Locktite is not an electrolyte, copper-grease can be and introduces another metal to the equation. As for the brake disc bolts, the Yamaha Fazer 1000 service manual, Section 4, page 15, "Brake disc bolt", torque to 18Nm, LOCTITE. 18Nm is less that half the torque used on the caliper bolts. A quarter of the torque for the front axle and just over 10% of the torque for the rear axle. It is NOT VERY TIGHT! That is why you use locktite to ensure they stay in place. If you do them up like a gorilla, you will fuck the heads, you will fuck the threads, you will probably fuck the mount holes, and you will have problems removing them. 

If you don't know what copper grease is for, or how it works, you really should refrain from recommending it until you find out, and if you want to recommend something that seriously contradicts the service manual, you should a) know what the service manual actually says, and b) have a pretty bloody good reason for saying it is wrong!