Author Topic: Rear wheel turning in neutral ? (Read 5834 times)

Graham53 · « **on:** 06 January 2017, 04:51:18 pm »

i took the old girl out for a blast to blow off the cobwebs and started her up on centre stand and with the choke on (revs high while warming ) the rear wheel starts turning but really fast like it's in gear but it's not and it's got a fair bit of torque behind it ( can't slow it or stop it with me boot ) which goes when the clutch pulled in and the wheel slows is this normal ?? my 600 don't do it.
The clutch is very noisy with the lever out ( goes when pulled in ) but it's recently been serviced by Yamaha stealer and I asked them to check the clutch ok due to the noise and it being a new (to me ) bike and to check adjustment. They said clutch was ok when I picked it up and noise was normal.
Gear changes are ok cold but as engine warms the changes get clunkier and neutral a bit harder to find, and sometimes if at lights with clutch in it feels like it's creeping but the lever bite is quite high i.e. As the lever released it bites just prior to the lever going back to its rest position
Also don't know if this is related but vibration is now bad and all fairing in fills vibrating badly when revving and when engine warm it gets worse feeling it through my feet , and higher the revs worse the vibes.
Anyone got any clues ? I've done a search through posts on vibration and there are of course loads that are clutch related but nothing come up on a search for the wheel turning in neutral.
I'm thinking an overhaul of the clutch is on the cards but im grateful for any help or advice

Kenbob · « **Reply #1 on:** 06 January 2017, 04:56:58 pm »

Mine does that rear wheel spin thing in neutral too but if I may make a suggestion.
Don't get your bike serviced at a Yamaha stealer, you might not get it back.

See what I did with the emoji, kinda relevant methinks.

Graham53 · « **Reply #2 on:** 06 January 2017, 05:02:57 pm »

ooooh on fire today

the stole my bloody hard earned beer tokens though if the clutch is focced,

PieEater · « **Reply #3 on:** 06 January 2017, 07:31:49 pm »

My rear also turns in neutral, I think they all do, I think most of my previous bikes did this also. As for the vibrations I'd balance the carbs before stripping the clutch.

esetest · « **Reply #4 on:** 06 January 2017, 07:56:06 pm »

Mine has always done that when first started , but stops after a short while .

slappy · « **Reply #5 on:** 06 January 2017, 08:06:07 pm »

My gen1 did it and my gen2 does it as well, rear wheel turns slowly but I can stop it easily with my hand.
If you cannot stop it easily I would look to see if the clutch is dragging.

Graham53 · « **Reply #6 on:** 06 January 2017, 08:13:48 pm »

Thanks for the replies , my 600 the wheel turns in neutral but you could stop it with a boot but this is like it's ticking over in gear and I put my boot on it and it just kept going that's why it seemed odd plus the creeping when clutch lever pulled in and engine revved.The carbs (apparently ) balanced by dealers at service 100 miles ago and told me they were only slightly out I specifically requested it due to vibration.One thing that did happen was the dealer I bought it from put fully synth oil in and Yamaha dealer said that was wrong and I read a post somewhere on here that it can cause clutch problems.Re the vibration I suspect it's a few small things making one big , engine mounts I think may need re torquing and some electrical connectors under fairing loose and possibly exup needs a good clean/greasing which due to a lack of garage will probably have to wait until warmer weather.Although I love the bike to bits and if I could get rid of the vibration I'll be a happy man

slappy · « **Reply #7 on:** 06 January 2017, 08:31:37 pm »

If it is creeping in gear then definitely clutch drag. If the Yamaha dealer changed the oil and it had fully synth in before and now it doesn't I would not have thought that would cause the clutch to drag but could be wrong on that.
Try backing of the clutch adjustment to see if that helps.
I would take it back to whoever serviced it and tell them you are not happy, after a service engine should be running smoothly and clutch working correctly.

unfazed · « **Reply #8 on:** 06 January 2017, 09:07:51 pm »

Smooth gear change when cold and clunkier when hot can be normal enough with the 1000. Worse if idle is set to low or before an oil change.

The clutch vibration can be lessened by balancing the carbs but never really disappears

There should be at least 5mm of free play at the end of the lever and the mounting.

Rear wheel spin is normal due to oil drag on the clutch and you rear brake is no binding and as Slappy says should be stopped easily with the lightest of pressure on the tyre.

There should be no problem getting the bike into neutral at a standstill, there might be issue if the rear wheel is still rolling.

Difficulty getting into neutral at a standstill is a completely different problem.

If you have difficulty getting it into to neutral at a standstill let me know.

Graham53 · « **Reply #9 on:** 06 January 2017, 09:17:16 pm »

Thanks slappy and unfazed , it's not difficult to get in to neutral it's more like my foot just goes past it and then need a really light touch on the lever to get it in neutral so it could be my size 12's or is that difficulty
The wheel will not stop with a light touch (like my 600 ) in fact it nearly took my foot off

Idle was a bit low initially but when I upped it made no difference still clunky downchanges ( like no clutch at all ) up changes ok
It is about 5mm free play
Definitely thinking clutch drag , would the clutch rumble/ rattle be a symptom it seems to be getting worse since purchase in September

bludclot · « **Reply #10 on:** 07 January 2017, 08:43:01 am »

I would suggest that your rattle is due to loose springs in the back of the clutch basket. I had mine welded and my clutch has been quiet ever since. Your creep and wheel spin must be related, I would suspect worn basket fingers - the clutch plates tend to wear shallow grooves in the basket fingers and it doesn't take much before the plates become reluctant to slide causing the exact symptoms you describe. That's the end of the good news however, it's not a solution to file/sand away the the fingers back to smooth as a good fit between plates and basket is required. A very small amount of sympathetic filing improves matters but doesn't give back factory performance. New baskets are available but eye wateringly expensive. When the above is considered, used baskets should be considered with caution unless it's known that it's come from a non-abused low mileage engine.
Bear in mind also that gen 1s are clutch cable sensitive. Even decent after market cables perform badly giving creep and hard to find neutrals despite being fitted to a healthy clutch. I figure this is down to the (from memory) four right angles that the cable has to negotiate from lever to casing. Genuine cables are available but, again, expensive.
A healthy clutch gives quiet, smooth operation with minimal wheel spin in neutral, no creep and easy to find neutrals.

Graham53 · « **Reply #11 on:** 07 January 2017, 02:02:46 pm »

Thanks bludclot
I was reading your post on your clutch yesterday with interest and was thinking that my clutch noise could be the same, ATM my biggest problem is I don't have a trusted mechanic to take it to for welding but that may only cure the rattle not the dragging so if I'm reading it right it sounds like I need a new basket or a low mile s/h one
worst bit is the warranty I had from the dealer run out 1st of Jan .... gutted

I looked at some s/h ones on evil bay and I was thinking the same about mileage and seeing as this bike is one I plan on keeping I'll probably just get a new one then I could get the springs welded before I fitted it which hopefully wouldn't cost much.
The bike is showing 19k mikes ,it was 1 owner from new and all the old mots back to the first one in 07 show the mileage to appear correct and it looks like it's not been abused so I'm confused as to why that's happened at low mileage although i just found out the previous owner had just been on a tour of Italy with his mrs and full givi luggage.

bludclot · « **Reply #12 on:** 07 January 2017, 02:52:55 pm »

I had the same misgivings with mine as mileage was showing circa 20K and all the paperwork, history and condition suggested that this be correct. The clutch was noisy though and neutrals were hard to find.

Could it be that a previous owner pulled a few ham fisted wheelies? Or learned to wheelie on our bikes perhaps? Maybe a particular batch of baskets produced were not as hard as required for decent long life use.

Graham53 · « **Reply #13 on:** 07 January 2017, 03:28:17 pm »

Bludclot , Did you just get a new basket and weld up the springs or just weld the old ones, I've looked into it a bit and it's probably a bit of poor quality manufacturing matched with a bit of poor use prior to owning
I think I'll just bite the bullet get a new clutch and there's a motorcycle engineers near to me that I'm thinking of trying out for removing a broken exhaust stud I've got on a spare 600 engine, that if they're ok get the springs welded before I fit the new clutch , I've covered all bases then, as from what I read of your thread yours is quiet and silky now.
How many miles have you done since doing and is it still quiet and smooth ?

bludclot · « **Reply #14 on:** 07 January 2017, 03:42:12 pm »

I renovated my 20k basket. The two loose springs were TIG welded if I recall, the other two left as found. The basket fingers were sympathetically filed. My trusted mechanic said that he took away all the material that he dare.
If memory serves a new basket was £387 a few years ago, no doubt that price has risen since.
The bike has done around 4k miles since (it's not used much, I have other bikes and a van for work) and yes, the clutch is still excellent today.

Graham53 · « **Reply #15 on:** 07 January 2017, 03:50:47 pm »

Thanks buddy , I was just re reading your post again and you had pics of the basket after it was welded up , it's a long shot but do you still have them , they seem to have disappeared off the original post , the purpose being that I could take the pic on my iPad and say to mechanic ... like this and he'd hopefully get it
If you haven't no sweat like I said it's a long shot but worth a try

Oh and was that price just for the outer basket ( assuming that's all I'd need ) or for the whole thing

eddie · « **Reply #16 on:** 07 January 2017, 05:39:47 pm »

Cold oil and or overfilled ..done worry about it .mine does it fazer thou so did the fazer 600,once oil gets to temp it stops....if clutch ain't slipping when in gear don't worry. ....it's a good excuse for you to be fleeced by a stealer if he convinces you need a new clutch

bludclot · « **Reply #17 on:** 07 January 2017, 06:09:49 pm »

Pictures have been lost over time, it's a sorry tale of web hosting let downs and backup/restore failures. I have to take some blame too, I should have kept copies instead of relying upon paid services (that didn't service).

Graham53 · « **Reply #18 on:** 07 January 2017, 06:40:43 pm »

No worries bludclot , I wouldn't have expected you to keep them it was a long shot, but thanks though I looked up on fowlers it seems it's about £420 inc vat although it lists it as clutch ass comp but then list other parts separate so it sounds like it could be assembly complete but I suspect it's just the basket.
When it stops raining I might whip the casing off and have a look

slimwilly · « **Reply #19 on:** 08 January 2017, 06:42:05 am »

Bike in neutral on stand ,rear wheel turning,,? not the cluctch , you are not holding the clutch,,its engaged,,in neutral yeh?,, so oil drag,it will stop turning the wheel when the oil is warm

bludclot · « **Reply #20 on:** 08 January 2017, 10:58:09 am »

No slimwilly, if Graham and I were suffering the same symptoms then the bike would creep forward when at a standstill in first with the clutch lever pulled in to the handle bar, whether the oil is warm or not. I was just about able to hold the bike still on flat tarmac with the clutch pulled all the way in and both feet planted and legs braced against forward movement.

Even if you were correct, it's no good a clutch not working until the engine has warmed!

tommyardin · « **Reply #21 on:** 08 January 2017, 06:04:56 pm »

Slip and Drag are at the complete opposite end of the scales, but, both make riding almost impossible, slip is either a maladjusted clutch or cable, worn out friction plates (Most recommend changing friction and plain steel plates together) or shagged pressure springs (Not often that though, as the don't normally get hot enough running in oil to lose their tempering) Dry clutch springs can.

Drag can be caused by buckled or heat warped steel plates (Can also cause slip) burred tabs/lugs on both plain and friction plates, knackered grooves/flutes in the basket and/or clutch centre/hub, but not oil drag causing the bike to creep you should be able to stop a rear wheel turning on tickover with a bare hand if it is spinning because of oil drag, even if the oil is cold.

Not wanting to sound argumentative, but any welding sounds pretty bloody final for the clutch, if it ever needs to be removed or parts replaced, unless of course it is a widely known and used fix in the forum, but I would shy away from a welder personally.

A complete new clutch assembly cost a shed full of dosh, but there are a few Second Hand on eBay right now for £100 or less, but as you know you pays yer money and you takes yer chances, but if they have been taken out of a crash doner bike the chances are they are much better than yours.

I wish you well with the repair as summer is officially on its way and I have it on good authority (My arthritic wrist joint is beginning to feel a little easier)
Any way Graham you still have the 600, that will put a huge smile on your face

<<<<< there you go I told you it would

unfazed · « **Reply #22 on:** 08 January 2017, 08:46:47 pm »

There is another possible issue which can cause similar issues. This is more common on the earlier R1s than the fazer, but there has been a few incidents of it on the fazers. I have come across it on three R1s. The cap, at the end of the shaft the clutch basket is on (see Picture) can pop out causing drag and difficulty in selecting neutral. When the cap fall out it is usually held with the clutch basket and does not do any damage other than an annoying rattle especially at idle and just above. Once the engine is revving higher centrifugal force keeps the cap from rattling. All the oil is pushed out the end of the shaft instead of through the shaft the transmission too dry to operate correctly and the clutch too wet causing the oil drag to be worse then normal.
Remove the clutch cover and the check if the hole at the end of the shaft is block or not. A phillips screwdriver will do to check. If it goes in more than a few mm then the cap has fallen out.
Remove the the clutch plate cover and the clutch plates, the cap should be in the boss. Bang it back in a to a dept of over 5 mm and put it back together.

tommyardin · « **Reply #23 on:** 09 January 2017, 12:29:51 am »

There, sounds very plausible and quite a quick fix to ,not going to find cheaper fix either.
W/D Unfazed

Keep us informed Graham

Graham53 · « **Reply #24 on:** 09 January 2017, 12:39:37 am »

It actually sounds the most plausible as it didn't occur gradually it was fine one day then not so fingers, toeseys and everything else crossed.
All I need now is better weather as my workshop is my front garden.
Thanks for all replies and as tommy said W/D unfazed I just wish the 600 was on the road but she's asleep for winter $:\$
As soon as I've checked I'll post up , hopefully with a big yahoo as what unfazed put really makes sense