Change of tyre manufacturer, more cornering confidence?

[Skippernick]

So my bridgestone bt 23s are coming to the end, this is the second set and i ran the original bt45 for a while that came with the bike.
Now i am not a fast rider but have passed my IAM so not shite either, but i do have a cornering/leaning confidence problem. Usually I'm fine with "slow in fast out" but sometimes i go in too hot as you do and freak out about leaning more i.e. scrapping the hero blobs.
I know what to do, grip the tank counter steer more, i know this is all in my head. I know a track day would help but time and money are limited.
I don't need to scrape the blobs all the time and i know that if hedge trimmer, slim or others jumped on my bike they would have it on its side no worries, but i want to be able to do it if needed without freaking.
So here's the question would a change of tyre manufacturer i.e. carcass construction tyre feel help me, or would sticking with what i know be better. And if so which tyres, not after the latest type, but a similar type to my bt23s i.e. sport touring.


Cheers
Nick

[fazersharp]

I think that the tyres are not the issue re- grip, in the dry on a road (not track) they all should do the job.
What about finding a quiet roundabout where you can practice getting lower. And I mean a quiet one ! with good visibility, I know some near me that I like to visit from time to time.
Like you say you don't intend on riding like that all the time but knowing how far it can be pushed if the need arises is useful

[Nath]

Do you go out on many ride outs? I found this helped me out quite a lot as most of them I ride with are or used to be IAM and no ones rides like a dick head. Once you realise there not riding dangerously you get to see how far they can lean over and know it's safe even though you might think your doing a Rossi.


As for tyres, I don't think it makes any difference. I did have BT14's on the bike when I first got it last year and they were nasty in the wet and cold but good in the dry. I now have PR4's and while these are a lot better in the wet and cold I can't seem to lean as much in the dry - they feel more pointed to the BT14's and I now realise how good they were in the dry.


The chicken strips - I hate that word - on the 14's was about 3/4mm. On the PR4's after about 400 miles are about 1 1/2 inches even though I still think I ride and lean the same.

[Frosties]

I think that the tyres are not the issue re- grip, in the dry on a road (not track) they all should do the job.
What about finding a quiet roundabout where you can practice getting lower. And I mean a quiet one ! with good visibility, I know some near me that I like to visit from time to time.
Like you say you don't intend on riding like that all the time but knowing how far it can be pushed if the need arises is useful

  Confidence not tyres is the issue me thinks. Practise and build up the observation, braking points and lean angle. If you're going in too hot then I don't think you're reading the road right either through road positioning or watching the vanishing point.


I've mentioned this last bit before - a old good friend of mine went from a very good rider to one who now scares the crap out of me thanks to IAM..... just my 2p.

[Skippernick]

I think that the tyres are not the issue re- grip, in the dry on a road (not track) they all should do the job.
What about finding a quiet roundabout where you can practice getting lower. And I mean a quiet one ! with good visibility, I know some near me that I like to visit from time to time.
Like you say you don't intend on riding like that all the time but knowing how far it can be pushed if the need arises is useful

  Confidence not tyres is the issue me thinks. Practise and build up the observation, braking points and lean angle. If you're going in too hot then I don't think you're reading the road right either through road positioning or watching the vanishing point.


I've mentioned this last bit before - a old good friend of mine went from a very good rider to one who now scares the crap out of me thanks to IAM..... just my 2p.

I know its confidence and when i say go in too hot this has happened twice in 5 years of riding  due to lack of concentration for what ever reason, its the exception not the norm.

[Skippernick]

Fazersharp and Nath,  I'll do more of that and see. This whole thing is me pondering.

[Grahamm]

AIUI, from what I've read, the current state of the art of sport-touring tyre manufacture is such that they are all pretty much of a muchness until you really start pushing the edge.

However, like you, I do have a confidence issue, simply because a couple of times in my life I've been on two wheels (bicycle and moped) and had the front tyre slide out from underneath me in wet conditions. Even though I have fast reactions, there's *nothing* you can do, you're on the ground before you can do anything.

So I've always been very cautious in the wet because I have no idea of the point at which a tyre might "let go" and unless I pay for skid pan training with outriggers on the bike, I don't know how else I can explore the limits of adhesion without taking risks that I'm very loathe to do.

Anyone got any helpful advice or suggestions on how to experiment with this whilst remaining safe?

[Punkstig]

Do the funky chicken

That is all!

[Frosties]

Fairly sure your issue Graham is not trusting a modern motorbike tyre. Seen loads of cyclists and scooters lose the front end in London. If you think of a bicycle tyre then the contact area is fuck all, a scooter isn't exactly set up with an ideal wheel size (tyre choice) or weight distribution for decent wet cornering.


What tyres are you running..do you ride 365 all weather, bet there decent tyres and you can't remember the last time you locked the front in the wet resulting in a major. Wet cornering over manholes, lines or diesel as we all know is a different story so I think you need to forget the past.

[darrsi]

Fairly sure your issue Graham is not trusting a modern motorbike tyre. Seen loads of cyclists and scooters lose the front end in London. If you think of a bicycle tyre then the contact area is fuck all, a scooter isn't exactly set up with an ideal wheel size (tyre choice) or weight distribution for decent wet cornering.


What tyres are you running..do you ride 365 all weather, bet there decent tyres and you can't remember the last time you locked the front in the wet resulting in a major. Wet cornering over manholes, lines or diesel as we all know is a different story so I think you need to forget the past.

Funny you should mention scooter riders 'cos i've seen those little pizza delivery bastards leaning their bikes almost horizontally in really wet conditions and i can more or less guarantee that the owner of the bikes couldn't give a shit about buying the best tyres for them, in fact they probably buy the worst rubber out there to save money.


I've had the BT023 on the front for a while now and can safely say they are very good in the wet, and also, as an all rounder, you could do much much worse.

[Nath]

Nick, whereabouts are you roughly? Maybe organise a ride out on here and see who else wants to go out to play.
Also, I wouldn't read too much into either and as long as you're enjoying your riding at a pace your happy with as well.
I can't help but think why didn't the IAM help with your cornering confidence or was it something that has only just started to bug you?

[Tmation]

https://youtu.be/EzcgeHLZMvw




Latest sport touring tyre test

[Fazerider]

Tyres do have a big influence on confidence that doesn't have anything to do with reaching the limits of grip. For example, I've never got on with Metzelers, find them quite scary in fact, yet I've no doubt that they're perfectly decent tyres and capable of cornering as fast as the BT023s. It's the nature of the feedback from the tyres, some talk a language I understand, some don't.
Everyone has a different riding posture and weight distribution… what suits others can easily feel crap to you, so trying a different manufacturer sounds like a good bet.

[joebloggs]

I'm no instructor but I know this method works.

Find a reasonably quiet road with all types of corners and ride up and down at a steady pace to get comfortable. Now try riding the same road at similar pace without using your brakes (unless you have to) using gears and throttle control to adjust your speed, increase your speed on corner entry as you feel more comfortable. Then start upping your straight line speed and use gentle breaking to slow down, if you get one of those panic moments just go back to roll on roll off for a couple of corners then start with the brakes again.

Most of the time poor mid corner speed and that Oh shit feeling is due to over braking and or braking to late when turning in is difficult due to the physical force induced by breaking to late

[joebloggs]

You also need to be relaxed, someone once told me I should be able to flap my arms about like a chicken mid corner, if not I'm hanging on to tight, sounds stupid, and dont over do it, but he was right, your bike will feel the tension in your arms, breathe and relax. Its the way forward and round!

[Dead Eye]

https://youtu.be/EzcgeHLZMvw

Latest sport touring tyre test

Interesting viewing, though I'm naturally skeptical as with all tests it's down to personal opinion

I was happy to see that the T30's I have scored well, though I would have liked to have seen the breakdown of the scoring points for each tyre. I have considered trying a different manufacturer before but I seem to have always stuck with Bridgestone. As some of the comments picked up, there is no scoring based on longevity so I would expect the other tyres to likely outlast the Metzelers.

And then there is the whole "Oh look, Metzeler got 1st and 2nd on a Metzeler sponsored event". Read in to that what you will, I doesn't really bother me as ultimately a leading manufacturer will naturally look to pit themselves up against competition where they believe they will do well, especially with the release of a new product. It doesn't necessarily mean the testing was bad, it just means that the company took an opportune moment to test

[fazersharp]

What I don't get is that every year a manufacturer will bring out "our most advanced tyre yet offering extra this and that" surly its all just marketing BS, so what are they saying - that the tyres you brought last last year that were the "most advanced yet" -- so are they now sh1t, im sure that tyre development reached its peak years ago. 

[Dead Eye]

Not necessarily, generally product and material advances can still be tweaked based on feedback from a previous iteration. So it's not that last years tyres are shit... it's just that this years are slightly better... It's then entirely your choice of where you put your money (this is then where they will try to convince you of spending more but that depends on the rep / company :P)

[fazersharp]

Because I do so few miles per year every time I change I have skipped about 3 generations of "tec" and never notice a difference

[joebloggs]

I believe its mostly confidence, I did once have a set of Jap replica's of ME33's that would let go even in the dry without to much provocation. Front end slides in the dry are very bloody scary.

As I said in my previous post, use the method to build your confidence and stop worrying about which brand of rubber you have underneath you.

[Dead Eye]

Because I do so few miles per year every time I change I have skipped about 3 generations of "tec" and never notice a difference

I wonder if that could be why though?

Certain things take a lot of experience with before you can identify the subtleties and begin to compare. Just a random example off the top of my head is the ability to tune a guitar by ear. I have a guitar, but like fuck can I do that because I really don't use it very often.

Then again, maybe the same can be said for whether you use the tyres to their full potential. As the guy in the video stated, most of the tyres you can't tell a difference until you start leaning on them more and become more familiar with their "character"

No offence intended and you may well be perfectly correct, I'm just putting some thoughts out there and I like trying to find and explore counter-points

[esetest]

I now have Pr3,s , I used to have Bt23 , I am pushing a lot more than I used to , but that is probably having more confidence , since doing the Ron Haslem race school .

[slimwilly]

My Metzelers went to the edge today,both sides,     fantastic tyre for giving confidence, got them on my Fireblade too

[Skippernick]

Loads of good advice guys thank you.
IAM didn't pick it up because it isn't really a problem, just maybe i am pushing a bit more now and as i am due a tyre change thinking about it even more.
Love the funky chicken idea.
Think i might change tyre manufacturer just to be able to compare anyway.

[Grahamm]

Fairly sure your issue Graham is not trusting a modern motorbike tyre.

Very probably. Having had a couple of bad experiences in the past, I'm loathe to try to explore the limits when getting it wrong could be expensive or even painful

What tyres are you running..do you ride 365 all weather, bet there decent tyres and you can't remember the last time you locked the front in the wet resulting in a major.

I've got Bridgestone 023s and I ride all year around. I've only ever had the ABS on the front cut in a couple of times, once when I had to anchor up and hit a patch of gravel (fortunately I was travelling in a straight line).

Let's try asking the question this way: If I'm cornering (and barring patches of diesel etc) which tyre is likely to slide first: The front or the rear? (Naturally I don't touch the front brake when cranked over!)

I can deal with rear wheel skids (I wore out many a tyre on my bicycle when I was a kid...) so if the rear is more likely then I will probably be ok.

So which is most likely to slide?