HID Headlights

[mark g]

Thinking of fitting a HID conversion to my gen 1, looked at LED bulbs after watching a ruck of youtube vids I think the HID Xenon type might be the way to go. Has anybody fitted a kit to there bike and if so are they any better than the OEM and lastly do they pass the MOT ok?.

[sadlonelygit]

yes
yes
yes

[mark g]

I guess that's a yes then    any particular make to buy / avoid ?


Cheers buddy

[PaulSmith]

Fitting HID bulbs has been the single best safety improvement I have made to any bike I have ever ridden.

My first kit was a cheap and nasty Chinese one from ebay that cost about £25 and the bulbs only lasted about six months, but it was still the absolute dogs dangly bits. It was a car kit so the cables for one bulb were much longer then for the other so finding somewhere to tidy them out of the way was a bit of a nuisance. Do not go for the high K values as apart from looking naff (IMHO) and attracting unnecessary attention, they simply do not put as much visible light on the road. I would recommend bulbs between 4500K and 6000K and if you go for the H4-3 type kits then you get normal and full beam. (An electro-magent in the bulb housing physically moves the bulb from  one position to the other and back.)

You do not have to make any permanent changes to the bike if you don't want to so you can put it back to standard when you sell it on, just run one power line from the battery to the back of the clocks.

One thing to watch out for are the H4 bulbs with the billet looking aluminium body such as these http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Car-35W-HID-H4-Conversion-Hi-Lo-Beam-White-Headlight-Light-Bulbs-Lamp-New-/350834496203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51af5d92cb because the body does not disconnect from the reflector so you can not get them through the rubbers to seal them in place. 

If you are a belt and braces type guy, you can carry a standard H4 bulb under the seat and if shit happens (typically the power line from the battery to the ballasts being too skinny and/or a connector coming loose) you can have it fitted and be on your way in 5 minutes, no tools required. 

[mark g]

Spot on info Paul, do you think it would be worth going down the HID Projector route or are the HID Bulb conversion good enough 

[PaulSmith]

I presume you are talking about replacing the reflectors and not just adding running lights. Projector or bulb conversion makes no difference to the light on the road so the choice would be for other reasons. As I said, the bulb conversion can be done on the cheap, is completely reversible and is quite hard to get wrong. The projector option looks really cool if it is done right but is expensive, permanent and not easy to get a professional finish. That said, I would seriously consider it if there is no way to do the bulb conversion on my next bike. 

One thing I forgot to mention is that you should pick up some LED side lights. The originals start to look a really naff tobacco stain colour when the HIDs are fitted.   

[mark g]

Cheers for that Paul, I've already ordered the LED side lights 

[b1k3rdude]

It's been said before, H4 HID kits just don't provide an even remotely accurate beam pattern. On dip, yeah loads of light but the splash/spill will just dangerously dazzel every other road user. And hi beam is a 50/50 lottery as to wither it was actually project a beam on the road on front or just splash all over the place. And no it wont pass an MOT its an instant fail.

If you want more light and not dazzle other road users you could do what I have done -

- http://www.bikevis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1088.0

Just tow them down a bit so as to be no higher than the top of the dip beam and you good to go, these LED spots only use 10W/0.66A each and the pair put out the same amount of light a a single HID bulb (1800lumens). The only issue is price @£95 per pair, but that said I have a set ofn my Bandit and Fazer and both sets are 2+ years old. HID kits I bought in the past barely make it paste a year before either the bulb or the ballast dies.





Here is a BMW rider with a set of CREE's



There are other makes of CREE based spotlights, so your not limited to Bikviz -

- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cree+motorcycle+spot+lights&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=u-q3VZLOHYrWeLe8v-AP

[PaulSmith]

It's been said before, H4 HID kits just don't provide an even remotely accurate beam pattern. ...

It has been said before, and it was wrong before, and if you say it again, you will be wrong, again.

The reflector reflects the light from a point source in a pattern decided by its designers. It does not know or care how that light is generated, only if it is in the right place. You can use a tungsten, halogen, bi-xenon or HID bulbs, fuck you can even use a carbide lamp if you can find a way to not melt the plastic, and it will not make a difference to the pattern of light reflected.

[Stormin]

HID's are illegal on any vehicle unless they are self levelling. Instant fail for MOT and fixed penalty from the long arm of the law. Been there,done it and paid the fine!!

[PaulSmith]

HID's are illegal on any vehicle unless they are self levelling. Instant fail for MOT and fixed penalty from the long arm of the law. Been there,done it and paid the fine!!

Wrong, wrong and wrong. Who comes up with these things?

I verified this with a sargeant I know in the Met who is currently serving in traffic; The long arm of the law do not and can not issue fixed penalty notices for HID headlights that are not fitted with self-levelling mechanisms because the long arm of the law are not trained to be road-side vehicle inspectors capable of determining if you actually have a self-levelling system fitted let alone determine whether or not it is working. Self levelling systems are not specifically mentioned for motorbikes in the MOT manuals but for all vehicles, IF fitted, it needs to work.

Vehicles equipped with High Intensity Discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system.Where such systems are fitted, they must work; however, it is accepted that it may not be possible to readily determine the functioning of self levelling systems. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt must be given.

So if they don't have to be there, and even if they are, MOT testers cant tell if they are working, how the foc are the plod expected to be able to? 

The third popular old wives tale concerns scatter and sparkle when HID's are fitted. The beam patterns required are described in http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_180.htm and they make no reference to sparkle. As stated before, a reflector is designed so that light coming from a particular point is reflected to produce the desired pattern. Any light outside that pattern is a result of imperfections in production and errors and compromises in the design. How the light is generated DOES NOT AFFECT THE PATTERN OR THE SCATTER. In other words, your reflector will pass an MOT, or it will fail it, regardless of the bulb that is in it.   

Back to the plod. The plod are able to issue fixed penalty notices if your headlights are clearly pointing in the wrong direction or if they have a blueish tinge. The motorcycle requirements of the MOT:  http://www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_120.htm specify that the light source FOR THE DIPPED BEAM be white or yellow. The term 'white' is not strictly defined in the document so is left to the testers discretion. White light is generally considered by scientists to be between 2.5k and 10k with the daylight being between 5 and 6.5k Kelvin. Light over 6k has a visible blueish tinge and may attract the attention of the boys in blue. consider yourself warned.

At the end of the day, if you are unlucky enough to fail an MOT for having HIDs fitted, or have any other problem with them at all, it takes less then five minutes to unplug them and replace one bulb with the traditional H4 bulb you carry under your seat. No tools required. 

The advantages of having HID over traditional Halogen bulbs are:

• Three time more light for a third less power - 35W HID @ 3300 lumns vs. 55W Halogen @ 1100 lumens
• Very low cost of conversion - cheapest two bulbs kits from £25 ~1hour to fit.
• Very easy to roll back to original ~ 5 minutes to get you going ~20minutes to restore original.

The disadvantages of HID:

• You might fail an MOT if you are very unlucky.

The MOT documents are all available online so you can look them up yourself. http://www.motuk.co.uk/default.asp

[Stormin]

Thanks for the essay. Your plod are obviously more relaxed than our cops here but it's still a MOT failure as far as our Government run system goes which basically boils down to no two Police Forces are the same. Maybe I should have made it clear that I'm on the opposite side of the Irish Channel

[mark g]

Cheers once more for the info Paul Smith, the cree spot lights in previous post look great but not my cup of tea. Paul, what lit did you end up getting for your bike ? I've been looking at car ones on ebay with slim ballast etc but not sure if they will fit etc.

[PaulSmith]

Sorry Stormin, maybe I was the one not being clear. Those are the UK MOT documents I linked to, not the Irish ones, and they clearly state that self-levelling systems are optional, and even if fitted they may not be possible to test. If you have any information the contradicts that , please post it. I cant think of any bikes with HID lights as standard but you will also notice that the self-levelling mechanism requirements apply to LED as well as HID, so they apply to the new Yamaha Tracer, which does not have any special mechanism. And I don't see plod queueing up to ticket them?   

The sargeant in question is in the London Metropolitan Police, and has had a number of different roles in traffic. He is currently involved in the commercial stuff as one of the evil bastards that check trucks and lorries are compliant. I am inclined to believe him especially when he gives the reasons that link to the evidence from the MOT documents and offers other ways that he could ticket you. If you did get a fixed point ticket, what was it for? He suggested that it was probably a CU20 "Causing or likely to cause danger by reason of use of unsuitable vehicle or using a vehicle with parts or accessories (excluding brakes, steering or tyres) in a dangerous condition" in which case the particulars should have detailed the offence that needed correcting so his buddy could give you a bollocking if you were stopped for it again. I would guess your bulbs were "inappropriatly coloured potentially causing confusion with an emergency vehicle" (ie the bulbs were blue) or they were just badly adjusted. It was not because you didn't have a self-levelling mechanism, but again, prove me wrong. 

[PaulSmith]

Cheers once more for the info Paul Smith, the cree spot lights in previous post look great but not my cup of tea. Paul, what lit did you end up getting for your bike ? I've been looking at car ones on ebay with slim ballast etc but not sure if they will fit etc.

Bloody hell! I have just seen the kit I fitted for under a tenner! How the hell do that do that? http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2pcs-Pair-35W-55W-75W-Xenon-HID-OEM-Replacement-Bulbs-car-Headlight-Lamp-H4-3-/271930374963?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3f50503b33

Get the 35W H4-3 5000k bulbs with slimline ballasts and you cant go wrong.  (I have just ordered a spare set I will keep on the shelf or fit to my daughters car or something.)

I was going to recommend something like the HIDS4U kit http://www.hids4u.co.uk/h4-hids4u-slim-35w-hid-xenon-conversion-motorcycles.html or the http://www.hids4u.co.uk/h4-35w-slim-proplus-bi-xenon-hid-conversion-kit.html but at £45 per bulb, I find it hard to justify.

[b1k3rdude]

The reflector reflects the light from a point source in a pattern decided by its designers. It does not know or care how that light is generated, only if it is in the right place.

And that's the whole point, all retro-fit HID kit's on the market today don't have the arc in the right position. And the HID kits with mechanical hi/lo bulbs are the worse offenders -

• the arc poorly positioned and on every kit I've seen, and its compounded by the fact because the bulb has far too much lateral movement.
• the baffling for the dip beam is nearly always next to useless, so that you get overspill which dazzles other road users.
• on hi-beam the position and baffling is so bad that you just get some half-assed pattern and not all of the light being exposed to the reflector.

The only way to realistically get a descent dip & hi beam with a HID kit is to have a fixed bulbs,  for dip check the arc is in the correction position and have enough baffling and for Hi just check  its in the right position (but Ive never heard of a fixed HID bulb in the correct hi-beam position). Andf there there is the heat up time, if the hi-beam bulb has been off for a while it will either -

• take to warm up to full brightness - bad on a dark lane at night.
• wont be able to perform the flash function, because the bulb with arc and then warm up.

Why do you think all new bikes coming out today are being fitted with LED headlights.

Bloody hell! I have just seen the kit I fitted for under a tenner! How the hell do that do that? http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2pcs-Pair-35W-55W-75W-Xenon-HID-OEM-Replacement-Bulbs-car-Headlight-Lamp-H4-3-/271930374963?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3f50503b33

Case in point -

• all my above points apply to this kit
• the 55W will put out more heat than a stock halogen bulbs, so may damage your plastic reflector.
• the 75w even more heat and are illegal from a wattage point of view.

And on the subject of the telescopic hi/lo bulbs. I have tried to mod them as to work around piss-poor baffling, but lateral movement(free play) on the bulb mech just put paid to that idea. What we need is a direct LED replacement for the H4 halogen bulb, but thus far all the ones I have tried just dont have enough light output and/or the baffling and light overlap of the hi/lo emitters don't work.

[mark g]

So what about the HID Projector kits, expensive and a bit more work to do but has anybody tried these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3p5jedQ




https://www.retrofitlab.com/en/hid-projector-kit/bi-xenon-mini-d2s-30-twin-kit-2.html

[b1k3rdude]

https://www.retrofitlab.com/en/hid-projector-kit/bi-xenon-mini-d2s-30-twin-kit-2.html

The youtube link isn't working.

And I have considered doing this as it will give you perfect dip and hi beam patterns, you can send them your headlight and they will fit the kit for you - or can you can do it yourself. The only 'issue' I can foresee with these kits is if the back of the DS2 bulb dosent seal against the rubber covers your going to get condensation inside the headlight housing.  I can tell from the photo's if the length/width of the rear of the DS2 bulbs is the same as the oem Halogens . So Im gonna drop them an email...

! No longer available

[mark g]

I've had a few email conversation with them already, they seems very helpful and are quick to respond which makes a nice change, I'm not sure what to do yet, would go with the projector set-up straight away if they were a bit cheaper........I'll probably try some bulbs first just to satisfy my curiosity 

[PaulSmith]

And that's the whole point, all retro-fit HID kit's on the market today don't have the arc in the right position. And the HID kits with mechanical hi/lo bulbs are the worse offenders -

• the arc poorly positioned and on every kit I've seen, and its compounded by the fact because the bulb has far too much lateral movement.
• the baffling for the dip beam is nearly always next to useless, so that you get overspill which dazzles other road users.
• on hi-beam the position and baffling is so bad that you just get some half-assed pattern and not all of the light being exposed to the reflector.

"all retro-fit HID kit's on the market today don't have the arc in the right position." Really!  All of them? Wow, that is a big claim. I mean, who would have thought that companies like Phillips and Osram wouldn't know how to make a H4 bulb properly? Thank goodness there are people like you on the internet to put them right. So what is the correct position for the light source? Just so I can check my own bulbs are OK?

[PaulSmith]

Its OK, I was able to find the correct position for my self. Google H4 specifications and look at some of the figures that come up. The key figure is 28.5 mm from the base and it seems that my bulb is OK. Phew, what a relief.

Details H$-3 HID bulb

H$-3 HID bulb

[mark g]

Bought a kit off ebay and fitted them today, just finished so have yet to use them in anger but when I do I'll let you know my thoughts, there certainly bright lol. If there shit I'll go down the projector route

[b1k3rdude]

I mean, who would have thought that companies like Phillips and Osram wouldn't know how to make a H4 bulb properly?

They don't make H4 kits, genuine Phillips/Osram HID kits are for projection headlights only. Any HID H4 kit that says its a phillips is only referring to the glass bulb, and that assuming its even a genuine philllips/osram in the first place.

Its OK, I was able to find the correct position for my self. Google H4 specifications and look at some of the figures that come up. The key figure is 28.5 mm from the base and it seems that my bulb is OK. Phew, what a relief.

Your being a tad simplistic, if it was that simple then we would all be running them.

So lets take at the HID bulb in the picture, which is just like all telescopic H4 HID kits available -

• did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
• is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
• all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
• The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector.
• And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
• A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
• And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.

There are direct LED replacement H4 bulbs out there, but this example is tad too pricey - http://www.horizonleds.co.uk/cree-led-headlight-kits-dual-beam/h4-cree-led-headlight-kit

[PaulSmith]

Your being a tad simplistic, if it was that simple then we would all be running them.

It is that simple! And now that bloody things are even cheaper then regular bulbs you have no excuse NOT to use them!
The fact remains they provide three times more light for one third less power. They are, IMHO, the single best safety improvement I have ever made to any bike. That is why I am trying to encourage more people to run them and decide for themselves. If they don't like them, they will be out of pocket less then a tenner!

So lets take at the HID bulb in the picture, which is just like all telescopic H4 HID kits available - [Which is why I used it.]

• did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
• is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
• all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
• The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector. [Do you get enough? I do]
• And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
• A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
• And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.

I went to the hassle of finding the H4 bulb specification, finding a H4-3 HID bulb, finding a vernier caliper and adjusting it correctly, taking the photo and posting it and you couldn't be even be bothered to look at it?  What is your problem? Tell you what, I am bored now, here is the spec for a H4. When you post evidence of a problem, I will listen to you, but until then...

Details H4 bulb spec

H4 bulb spec

 

There are direct LED replacement H4 bulbs out there, but this example is tad too pricey - http://www.horizonleds.co.uk/cree-led-headlight-kits-dual-beam/h4-cree-led-headlight-kit

So bloody what? LED lamps are area source not point source so can not be used effectively in point source based reflectors to produce directed light. Do you know nothing?     

[mark g]

Must admit every LED based headlight conversion I saw on YouTube weren't as good as HID lights, my mate runs buld only conversion on his blade and he says it works fine so I'll give mine a go tonight if it's not pissing down. Like I said before if there shit I'll just buy the projector kit.