Date: 28-03-24  Time: 14:38 pm

Author Topic: Starting problem theory.  (Read 7713 times)

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Starting problem theory.
« on: 23 May 2015, 10:43:04 am »
My intermittent starting problem isn't entirely remedied yet.....have done as many of the connections I get my mits on...contact cleaner and dilectric grease, ive sprayed copious wd40 down the ignition hole and I've taken off most of the electrical ancillaries such as heated grips and 12v charger point and old GPS wiring....only the gear indicator left on. Also got a new battery last year which is good, mottobat.

to recap - it will turn and turn and turn over without firing and requires turning off the ignition and back on...maybe once, twice, three times (a ladddyyyyyyy :b)....then it will just fire up first press of the switch no problem.

the other day I tried it lots of times to no avail...then I thought foc it ill try holding the clutch in - & it fired up.......but I thought that was maybe coincidence.......but over the last few days it hasn't failed to start once while holding the clutch in.

Can anyone think of a reason for this???....I was thinking maybe a sensor somewhere.

I've heard of talk about micro switches on the clutch levers and i do have aftermarket ASV levers......surely that would mean that it didn't turn over though....but could it be teetering on the edge somewhere perhaps?

Only other thing i can think of is that i detached the clutch foot lever from its spigots in order to get more comfy foot position and since then found out via Red98 that actually this spigot is supposed to go on one position only....sure he said there's an arrow somewhere to line it up but i cant see any markings....ive put it back to what i think it was close to but perhaps something to do with that affecting a sensor somewhere or never being properly in Neutral??????

any ideas appreciated but for now ill continue to start with the clutch pulled in........if eventually it doesn't start whilst holding the clutch in then that will discount the new theory but so far so good.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

red98

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,567
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - FZS600,CB400/4,X7,CB250
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2015, 11:31:34 am »
Hi noggy....piccie for you.dot should line up with the slot, unlike my gen 1  :lol


fegards your starting problem, yeh, agree with you matey, carry on pulling the clutch in and see if it works every time for a few weeks or so....have the gen 2 s got a switch to stop you starting it in gear, pulling the clucth in overiding it ?
« Last Edit: 23 May 2015, 11:32:51 am by red98 »
One, is never going to be enough.....

slappy

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,797
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - MT09
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2015, 11:36:56 am »
Habit of mine is to always start bike with clutch pulled in, even when I know I am in neutral.
 
What Red98 says about the clutch spigot is correct as far as I know. If you put the bike in first gear,pull the clutch in and try to start it does it always start first time? If it does I would have another look at the spigot position and try adjusting it again.

sirgalahad3

  • Club Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - SR 500
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2015, 11:40:00 am »
Change ignition switch....;-)

Grayo

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
  • Another ex Fazer owner still hanging around.
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - Triumph Tiger 1050 Sport
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #4 on: 23 May 2015, 11:43:07 am »
Habit of mine is to always start bike with clutch pulled in, even when I know I am in neutral.
 



Yes me too. Sounds like it may be part way between neutral and first gear and the bike can't decide if it's in neutral or not.
I could change my opinion, but then we'd both be wrong.

DekF

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,177
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - Fast as fck s1r
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #5 on: 23 May 2015, 12:36:32 pm »
The clutch microswitch is part of the starting cutout circuit. As has been said it stops the engine turning over when in gear (without the clutch lever pulled).
As your engine still spins with the starter button & the clutch lever not pulled it's not the reason for the non starting.
Once on tour, my gen 2 spun the engine but it wouldn't fire. I switched it off & on & it immediately fired up. It rarely happened again but when it did, I just repeated the process.


noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #6 on: 23 May 2015, 01:36:01 pm »
Thanks everyone, that's a great help :thumbup

because I've started, ill just leave everything as is for now and only change 1 thing at a time, so ill keep pulling the clutch in for now until it inevitably does it again......then i'll make sure the spigot is aligned...just box ticking no doubt.

usually it will start eventually...it doesn't worry me that it will leave me stranded although in extremes i could run down the battery i suppose after too many attempts.

Once I've done these little things i'll look to fitting my PC5....the guy in the garage seemed to think it was running lean...probably is tbh...it has had the cat gutted, ais blocked, ivans FCE and a K&N....yet no PC so not surprising if it is indeed running lean..........possibly it has something to do with it all.

thinking about trying out Slimwillys Kebab mod tonight also :b
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

slimwilly

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,698
  • I love to ride them hills
    • Main bike:
      FZ1 Faired Gen2
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #7 on: 23 May 2015, 06:47:44 pm »
Use a rucksack   :lol :lol :lol :lol


otherwise if you fall off the ambulance people will think your Liver has shot out of your mouth  :lol
An ageing test pilot for home grown widgets that may fail at anytime.

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #8 on: 23 May 2015, 07:16:21 pm »
Use a rucksack   :lol :lol :lol :lol


otherwise if you fall off the ambulance people will think your Liver has shot out of your mouth  :lol


Yeh...might think i spunked my load when they see the Garlic mayo everywhere......call in the CSI :lol




Probably think it was a case of mistaken identity when they see the Salad :b
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #9 on: 25 May 2015, 08:27:10 pm »
So far, so good my bike has started up quickly without fail every time since holding in the clutch lever....granted it could still be coincidence.

Weather due to be shite from Wednesday so after tomorrow it will probably be a little while before I can continue the test but I'm keen to get that PC5 on ASAP to see how much fun it provides :)
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

unfazed

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • - FZS1000 05-06, Serow 2000
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #10 on: 27 May 2015, 07:13:29 pm »
Noggy, it could be the ignition switch which has 2 wires that supply an earth to the ECU, without this earth the ECU will not work. The earth is taken from the neutral switch and/or the side stand switch up through the ignition switch and back to the ECU..
The fact the engine turns over on the starter rules out the side stand switch as it also supplies the earth for the starter circuit.

A few questions to narrow it down

Does it happen with the bike in neutral?
Does the neutral light work?
Does the neutral light still work, when this happens?
Does it happen with the bike in gear side stand up and the clutch pulled in?

Check the wiring from the ignition switch to ensure there is no corrosion in the plug under the tank. It does not take much corrosion to cause the problem. Has anyone on the forum taken one of these switches apart? (I have not seen the inside of one) as it may have a resistor like the Suzukis have to prevent hot wiring. If not you could bypass it the next time it happens and if it starts change the switch.
How proficient are you in using a meter? you could test the wires of this circuit to ensure good continuity.

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #11 on: 28 May 2015, 08:21:38 am »
Noggy, it could be the ignition switch which has 2 wires that supply an earth to the ECU, without this earth the ECU will not work. The earth is taken from the neutral switch and/or the side stand switch up through the ignition switch and back to the ECU..
The fact the engine turns over on the starter rules out the side stand switch as it also supplies the earth for the starter circuit.

A few questions to narrow it down

Does it happen with the bike in neutral?
Does the neutral light work?
Does the neutral light still work, when this happens?
Does it happen with the bike in gear side stand up and the clutch pulled in?

Check the wiring from the ignition switch to ensure there is no corrosion in the plug under the tank. It does not take much corrosion to cause the problem. Has anyone on the forum taken one of these switches apart? (I have not seen the inside of one) as it may have a resistor like the Suzukis have to prevent hot wiring. If not you could bypass it the next time it happens and if it starts change the switch.
How proficient are you in using a meter? you could test the wires of this circuit to ensure good continuity.


Interesting thoughts unfazed.....to answer some of the fault find questions:-


- it happens with the bike in Neutral


- the neutral light works well


- neutral light still works at times that it acts up


- so far, clutch in & she starts, although ive only been trying it with the clutch pulled in since getting it on the road but she has without fail started up whilst also pulling the clutch in....my plan is to continue this method a little longer to get more of a spread of succesful attempts but tbh it would have usualy failed a few times within the alrady tried starts......p.s - side stand up or down she still starts with clutch pulled in.




There were a couple of connectors under the tank at the front end that i just couldnt get to, near the CDI they were...i tried and tried but there was no purchase as the wires they were connected to were too tought to pull out to a useful degree to get my fat fingers in there.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

unfazed

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • - FZS1000 05-06, Serow 2000
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2015, 08:55:03 am »
The Crank and cylinder sensor plugs should be checked also as corrosion there could cause the symptoms you describe.
When I was checking for a similar problem some time ago it was the plug for the crank sensor which was corroded.

Does it happen hot, cold or anytime??

JoeRock

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 907
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2015, 03:46:47 pm »
Have you replaced the clutch switch?

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2015, 07:59:22 pm »
The Crank and cylinder sensor plugs should be checked also as corrosion there could cause the symptoms you describe.
When I was checking for a similar problem some time ago it was the plug for the crank sensor which was corroded.

Does it happen hot, cold or anytime??


Hot or cold, can be first start of the day or the 15th during a days summer riding while engine red hot.




One small thing......up and n skye i had a struggle with the ignition key....it jammed and i had to do a fair bit of wiggling before it eventually turned.......then did the same a few times afterwards....when i got home i graphite sprayed it and it was tickety boo..........could that suggest that the ignition switch is at fault.


Silly question......where exactly is an ignition switch anyway?...is it in the barrel assembly area or is it remote via wiring???
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2015, 08:00:13 pm »
Have you replaced the clutch switch?


Hey Joe


Nah i havent replaced anything in this department.........where generally are these clutch switches then?
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

Andy FZS

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,137
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #16 on: 28 May 2015, 09:23:47 pm »
However tempting it is to come up with some smart answer about the ignition switch I think you'll find it plugged on to the mechanical bit you put your key into.  Is it still starting ok? I don't have a wiring diagram of the new fangled fi machinery as mine is old and simple as am I.

unfazed

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • - FZS1000 05-06, Serow 2000
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #17 on: 28 May 2015, 11:27:43 pm »
Just to put a few things straight here in a simple format. For the purpose of the explanation the earth and negative (black) of the battery mean the same and the power and positive of the battery (Red) mean the same

The side stand switch is part of the circuit which supplies an earth to the ECU. If the ECU does not see this earth it will not fire the coils and therefore without spark at the plugs the engine will not start.

If the side stand is down this earth is disconnected, but if the bike is in neutral the earth for the ECU is now supplied by the neutral switch and the engine will start.

If the bike is in gear and the side stand is up, pulling in the clutch lever the clutch switch (located at the lever) provides a bypass path for the earth and the engine will start.

If the side stand is down and the bike is in gear the earth to the ECU is broken and bike will not start, as this stage pulling in the clutch will not help as both the earth via the neutral switch and the earth via the side stand are disconnected.

To prevent the engine turning over and not starting when this earth is disconnected from the ECU, the same earth supplies the starter motor circuit. Therefore if this earth is disconnected like the scenarios set out above not only will the engine not start, but the starter motor will not turn.

The circuitry for the above is contained in a little black box with 16 wires plugged into it called the "starting circuit cut-off relay".
This box also contain the fuel pump relay.

If we follow this earth after the starting circuit cut-off relay it goes to the ignition switch and from the ignition switch to the ECU, thus turning off the ignition does 2 things:
1. Disconnect power to the electrical circuits (except the clock)
2. Disconnect the earth to the ECU

Turning on the ignition does the following:
1. Connects power to the electrical circuits via the fuses
2. Connects the earth to the ECU

The "kill switch" switches on and off the power supply to the starter motor circuitry and the fuel pump relay in the starting circuit cut-off relay and the coils.


Back to Noggythenog problem, it seems the starting circuit cut-off system is working correctly from his description and the kill switch is working (starter motor works) this means the problem must lie between the starting circuit cut-off relay and the ECU which points to the ignition switch.

However there are a few other things which affect starting outside the control of the starting circuit cut-off relay circuit and they are:
1. Crank sensor
2. Cylinder Identification sensor

In this case it is unlikely that the electrical supply to the injectors is the problem as it would be extremely rare for all four to stop working.

It is always wise to check out the wiring and connectors for damage or corrosion before resorting to swapping items as his problem could be a loose connection, damaged wire or connector corrosion.

slappy

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,797
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - MT09
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #18 on: 29 May 2015, 08:56:14 am »
Great explanation :D
I wish I understood it :o

unfazed

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • - FZS1000 05-06, Serow 2000
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #19 on: 29 May 2015, 09:53:50 am »
Great explanation :D
I wish I understood it :o

Keep reading it, it will eventually sink in :lol

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #20 on: 29 May 2015, 10:32:31 am »
Thanks Unfazed, very in depth but logical & could help someone in future with any simillar type issue.


Ill keep tabs on it but im guessing that this just isnt a caseof opening something a replacing a switch which is cheap and woola.....i bet it involvesnew ignition barrel etc etc.


I dont have an immobiliser or a chipped key....possibly a US import which then goes and makes sourcing a direct replacement a little bit tougher.


If i could get by for a few years with just pulling the clutch in i'd be happy but theres probably a flaw in that methodology.


Hoping the weatherwill clear up enough today for a spin.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

unfazed

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • - FZS1000 05-06, Serow 2000
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #21 on: 29 May 2015, 11:57:23 pm »
Does it always start with the clutch pulled in????

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #22 on: 30 May 2015, 12:14:42 pm »
Does it always start with the clutch pulled in????

so far yep but I haven't perhaps had long enough to completely prove that although knowing my bike I would say yes it does.

the reason I originally asked was that when I got my Chinese shorty levers on my 600 I can vaguely recall a few of us had them around the same time and someone was mentioning that with the new levers there was an issue with some micro switch that wasn't bein utilised with the new levers and that's what got me thinking as I have ASV levers.
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike

unfazed

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,309
  • Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • - FZS1000 05-06, Serow 2000
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #23 on: 30 May 2015, 01:03:23 pm »
Noggy
That is a different issues and more or less rules out the Ignition Switch and looks more like a wiring issue or a diode gone in the starting cut-off relay. I have seen fellows blow these when they did not know what they were doing .

Might be worth while changing the Starting cut-off relay, they are used in the FZ6, FZ1, FZ8, R6 and R1 so should be common enough and cheapish.

The part number is 5VK-81950-40

What is the under seat code of your bike? it is probably 3C37 something or 3C3A something. This will determin if it is Local or Foreign  :lol

noggythenog

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,991
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - TRX Noggyfighter
    • View Profile
Re: Starting problem theory.
« Reply #24 on: 30 May 2015, 03:22:37 pm »
Noggy
That is a different issues and more or less rules out the Ignition Switch and looks more like a wiring issue or a diode gone in the starting cut-off relay. I have seen fellows blow these when they did not know what they were doing .

Might be worth while changing the Starting cut-off relay, they are used in the FZ6, FZ1, FZ8, R6 and R1 so should be common enough and cheapish.

The part number is 5VK-81950-40

What is the under seat code of your bike? it is probably 3C37 something or 3C3A something. This will determin if it is Local or Foreign  :lol

Thanks Unfazed, another worthy option.....especially if it is cheap....so that's the thingie that should be near the battery somewhere...a quick google indicates a unit with a fuse either side.

I think on my next run out i'll stop pulling the clutch just to make sure that the problem manifests again and then order one of these. 8)
Easiest way to go fast........don't buy a blue bike