Earnings

[VNA - BMW Wank]

My only problem with Hamilton's wage is that he's not paying tax.
He'll tell you how proud he is to be British, but then leave you to pay the taxes.

our armed forces protect us/the country from a foreign threat

Well no not really.  The world is actually become a far far more dangerous place in the last ten or so years thanks to the actions of our armed forces.  There was no 'terrorist' activity in Iraq pre 2003.   People in the armed forces follow orders, simple, Tony Blair persuaded parliament, based on a pack of lies, to Invade Iraq. 


Look here's what gets me about pay.  I'll probably do my weekly supermarket shop tomorrow, the employees in the supermarket like a good few other million round the country will be on minimum wage or just above it.  You know what, in my mind somebody who works full time deserves a living wage, but as it is we have millions of people in full time work who claim benefits.  So in effect I pay my taxes so that these people can claim benefits.  Or if you like I, like a lot of you on this forum, subsidise the rich.  Big multi billion pound companies, many of them not paying their corporation tax, then don't bother to pay their hard working staff a decent wage and leave us dumb tax payers to pick up the tab!  I mean how focced up is that?

Did somebody mention living in a capitalist society?  What capitalism does is screw ordinary people, you could call it if you like socialism for the rich.

[lew600fazer]

Oh this will piss you all off then, I was a seafarer all my working life , marine engineer, since 1982 I legally never paid a penny in UK income tax. One of the reasons why, is the later years I was allowed 180 days a year in the UK. It was basically the UK's way of ensuring there was always a pool of skilled merchant seamen. It was a form of job protection for us as cheaper foreign crews were starting to creep in on British Flagged ships. At the same time though the British Ship owners made us redundant and then invited us to re-apply for our jobs again at greatly reduced terms and conditions, Pensions frozen etc!!
Why would the government want to ensure there was apool of British seafarers, well Mrs Thatcher found a use for me and a few others down in the Falklands and in the Gulf wars as well.
Sadly now the British Merchant Navy has all but gone, there are still lots of ships that fly the Red Duster, it has become a flag of convience.

[fazersharp]

what strikes me on reading this topic is the wide and varying lives and stories of everyone and yet we all have the one thing in common -- our bikes and despite our social and political views we can all agree on that (bikes)

[Dave48]

what strikes me on reading this topic is the wide and varying lives and stories of everyone and yet we all have the one thing in common -- our bikes and despite our social and political views we can all agree on that (bikes)

Yes, whenever I become amazed,overwhelmed,disgusted at the WORLD system-not simply the UK-because its world market forces at work affecting all our lives-
I can always ride my Japanese bike on French tyres burning fossil fuel from the Middle East in my German riding gear. Oh was forgetting there is a part thats British made-the exhaust system!
When our dear politicians & masters have completed their sale of our few remaining assets we can proudly take our place as a third world nation/theme park for foreign tourists and we can all sit in front of our TV/PCs watching "reality" & celebrity" shit watching the primadonnas strut their stuff. Me?-"f**k that! i will get out and ride as long as I am physically/mentally able 

[Fazafou]

Did somebody mention living in a capitalist society?  What capitalism does is screw ordinary people, you could call it if you like socialism for the rich.

I would rather live in a capitalist society.
Capitalism works better than any other models as it feeds into human nature rather than go against it.

That said our current model of capitalism isn't working, and needs changing to prevent the poverty gap getting bigger. It is possible to have a fair capitalist system and allows people to try and better themselves.

[maddog04]

 the politicians who run the country, have the power to change things
 
true but never underestimate people power, think of French farmers/Tienemen (?) square/scouse footy fans starting footy alliances with other fans to bring prices down
yes, people would rather pay for their season ticket than road tax etc but for some, that season ticket has been in the family for generations and we pay enough taxes as it is (saying that, I'd be willing to pay more council tax for more Police/Fire etc)
I won't bang on about Unions but simply put, we're stronger then, rather than fighting on our own
 
VNA you're right to a degree about the middle East but what do you propose, that we have no Armed Forces?
their 1st job is to go to war, no more no less. HMG use them to break strikes and a manner of all sorts these days but like you say.....you take orders or get out

[maddog04]

and its not the Armed Forces fault, its down to politicians

[Raz Mcgruff]

Did somebody mention living in a capitalist society?  What capitalism does is screw ordinary people, you could call it if you like socialism for the rich.

I would rather live in a capitalist society.
Capitalism works better than any other models as it feeds into human nature rather than go against it.

That said our current model of capitalism isn't working, and needs changing to prevent the poverty gap getting bigger. It is possible to have a fair capitalist system and allows people to try and better themselves.

if only we lived in a capitalist society.

Rail Subsidies, Oil company subsidies etc
Bailing out companies that fuck up (banks)
Subsidising low pay with government benefits,

We don't live in any thing near a capitalist society.

 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

if only we lived in a capitalist society.

You better believe it.

Rail Subsidies, Oil company subsidies etc

That's right private companies, some of them that can't even turn a profit get subsidised by us, they then pay their useless board millions and in turn pay out further millions to their rich shareholders.  Your taxes straight to the rich..

Bailing out companies that fuck up (banks)

Yup instead of the banks, their bosses and rich shareholders taking the hit, they are bailed out by you and then you get punished with austerity.  Focced over, then focced over again.

Subsidising low pay with government benefits,

As I already said, we subsidise the multi billion pound companies (who don't pay their taxes) their rich bosses and shareholders by paying the money to their hard working employees that they should be.

Yes perhaps you are correct Raz, what we have is socialism, but socialism for the rich.

[Raz Mcgruff]

I actually read Wealth of Nations not long after the recession hit.

I think Adam Smiths at about 10000 RPM now 

[Hedgetrimmer]

what we have is socialism, but socialism for the rich.

I think what we have is a democratic* dictatorship,** one step removed from a plutocracy.***

*because you can vote.
**because once elected, they all do what the foc they want and you have to just bend over and take it.
***one step because the politicians are a front, or buffer for the rich, for whom the politicians have to bend over and take it.

Any advances on that?

[VNA - BMW Wank]

*because you can vote.
**because once elected, they all do what the foc they want and you have to just bend over and take it.
***one step because the politicians are a front, or buffer for the rich, for whom the politicians have to bend over and take it.

But voting is just one aspect of politics.  And if that is folks only input, well then don't be surprised when a good few of em just do as they please.  But no you don't have to just bend over and take it.

Yes the multi-national private corporations are in danger of becoming more powerful than governments, and of course those ministers that we don't hold to account are busy cosying up to those big corporations so they can get their lucrative consultation work once they are finished with parliament. 

But like I say, the people will get the government they deserve. 

[BIG MAC]

To be fair, I don't care what Lewis earns, someone is prepared to pay it and if it wasn't him it would be someone else possibly a German. What I do advocate is that anyone who retains a British passport but lives elsewhere as a tax dodge (not the old age retired) should be required to renew their passport at a cost of 5% of their global earnings per annum.
If they want to come back here to use a health service or want  to work in the Emirates while building a property portfolio here and lean on our services ...pay for it

[VNA - BMW Wank]

VNA you're right to a degree about the middle East but what do you propose, that we have no Armed Forces?
their 1st job is to go to war, no more no less. HMG use them to break strikes and a manner of all sorts these days but like you say.....you take orders or get out

I am not aware of the army being used to break strikes.   I don't think it's been tried since the Glasgow rent strikes almost 100 years ago (am I about to be corrected? ).

Where do you start with our attitude towards the Middle East?  Well over 100 years of imperial abuse and wholesale theft of assets.  In recent years the unjustified and disastrous invasion of Afghanistan which after over ten years of occupation has achieved absolutely foc all.  And this in a country that was sacrificed by the USA with help from the UK to give the USSR it's Vietnam.

Regime change in Iraq.  The intelligence services knew there was no WMD, and frankly the claim that there was WMD left anybody with half a clue wondering what the heck the USA and UK had just spend ten years bombing.
We knew it had all already been destroyed.  Not to mention you might wonder who sold it to them in the first place and at times encouraged them to use it.  (that would be us again!)

So, yes, it was purely regime change.  Bush was getting irritated that their puppet Saddam was at times becoming difficult.  And of course at that time there were no terrorists in Iraq.  Regime change and an economic fantasy that we would buy their cheap oil and they would use the money to get us to rebuild and run Iraq. 

Then fast forward a bit.  Syria.  Putin backed Assad warning us of the dangers of Mujahedeen Extremists, so Russia armed Assad, we armed the Mujahedeen and the civilians paid the price, as of course they do in all wars. 

You know how about, after completely foccing up the whole region for well over 100 years, we perhaps face up to our immoral illegal and racist foreign policies and maybe try and draw up some policies that might nip ISIS in the bud and promote other policies that might just improve the lives of people in the region.

But then of course we are stuck in a economic military complex, we are addicted to selling arms to rouge states that promote war and extreme ideology  across the Middle East. 

[locksmith]

Have you seen the ticket prices these days for F1, Premier League football etc?

Yes, but do not tell the wife

[maddog04]

VNA
armed forces are currently training for and have been drafted in to fight fires during our strikes, they initially rode green goddess engines but now they've been sold they will ride the red ones if we go out for long periods
this fact coupled with other riders that I cannot say without getting into trouble is the tories way of  trying to defeat us
 
as for the middle east, you're right but remember the MP's call the shots

[VNA - BMW Wank]

VNA
armed forces are currently training for and have been drafted in to fight fires during our strikes, they initially rode green goddess engines but now they've been sold they will ride the red ones if we go out for long periods
this fact coupled with other riders that I cannot say without getting into trouble is the tories way of  trying to defeat us

I take you are a fireman maddog.  But what you are talking about is essential safety cover and is done with the agreement of the trade unions - that is my understanding.  But yes the Tories will do everything and anything to defeat the working man.

a

s for the middle east, you're right but remember the MP's call the shots

Absolutely.  I have no issue with those in the armed forces, yes many of them literally put their lives on the line and indeed some of them give their lives.  But you won't find the Thatchers, the Blairs and the Camerons of this world on the front line.   And we do shockingly little to help, that is those who need help whom I understand there are many, after they have left the army.

As for the middle east.... Well how about this, just a few weeks ago Prime Minister Hamad bin Jasim bin Jabir al-Thani of Qatar  was in London to meet David Cameron.  David Cameron, we are told, was politely asking him to stop funding ISIS.  Guess what - Qatar is one of 'our' priority arms markets. 

[noggythenog]

I personally feel that pay in the emergency services is just about right......slightly low but only because of recent erosion of pay, conditions and working practices.


Firefighters - you can live a decent life, have a half decent car and do something worthwhile......pay is ok but i think that the previous benefits kind of made up for that a little bit to make the whole package decent....because the benefits and perks have been chipped away at then it is no longer the case & i Reckon that the fire service has been losing quality guys to the likes of the oil industry......used to be run like the millitary and recruited lots from the millitary and as such i liken a good watch to the likes of a special forces platoon wherby you have lots of skilled guys with specialised expertise which can overcome different situations......instead of that type of recruitment then i would guess that you're far more likely to now have someone who went to college to study something tarty like "sports science" rather than someone who has real skills.......this will only get worse.......firefighters have been wrongly demonised by the Rich in order to take the flack away from themselves.....this is wrong......like VNA says the likes of Amazon are legally fleecing this country while we moan about firefighters going on strike being selfish. Ok i appreciate that there arent as many fires these days due to increased fire safety but the problem comes when there is a fire because the chances are it's gonna be a biggy and if you've spent the last ten years recruiting only those who will accept the crap conditions then dont be surprised when something goes pete tong that's what im saying......end of the day if im trapped in a fire i want the most switched on and job happy person coming to rescue me.




Paramedics - probably used to be a good job but again it is the conditions which have been chipped away so that they are permanently flat out and understaffed like the rest of the NHS.......paying them more wouldnt suddenly make them less stressed out but providing adequate levels of staff would improve their work....again all of the media portrayals of staff refusing to act because they're on their lunch break.....engineered by the head sheds to make us have a go at the staff when in reality it's gotta be in a bit of a shit state when things like that start happening and the shit has come from the top.


Police - seems to have resisted the most to at least keep hold of allot of the benefits that they have but by all means has turned into a glorified social working job really hasnt it....i wish they could just give folk a right shoeing but even that perk has gone now coz they get grassed up by their own probies ....cant punch a smackheed coz thats against his rights and all that other good shit.....still seems a tidy job though and the pay is good but again all the paperwork and shit jobs and doing reports at home in your spare time or whatever...foc that.


So to summarise......all decently paid........if it was 20 years ago...........now a little bit shit because of the change in conditions......not necessarily the pay itself...all services are portrayed in a bad way by the media via the government via the rich......................who are a bunch o tossers.

[taylor]

good luck to them all if they earn loads of money, by whatever means, grab and take what you can , before someone else does, because they will. most people have the same choice of education as the next person.

[lew600fazer]

Same choice of education well it is supposed to be, in reality it is not.
The public service sectors have never been the best paid but do have a pension at the end off it, unlike many in the private sector.
When do the police go on full pension?School teachers? Nursing staff?
Fire men are getting screwed over if they fail their medical and that sucks kicked out and loss of or reduced pension.
While fire men do an excellent job it is not exactly rocket science. I am not demeaning the job all you need do to put out a fire is remove oxygen, by either water, foam, dry powder or an inert gas.
Do not blame the Tories, Labour or whoever else for the state of the country, we have all added to the mess we are in, greed that is what is wrong in society today, OH and the ones that really caused the mess BANKERS. Yet agin this last week banks have been fined £2billion very good the cost of that fine will be paid by us Joe public.

[noggythenog]

Lew remember that you are talking from a shipping perspective whereby fire fighting is an essential aspect but then if you're in the Atlantic then the fire service aren't exactly to hand are they....but alongside then they could be to hand in theory....or tugs...although I do wonder whether in reality would anyone come close enough to an on fire LNGC.......hmmmm debatable perhaps.

& fires are just a small part of what firefighters do....the Rescue side of it is more pertinent.......Cutting people out of vehicles, dealing with hazardous chemicals, Flood rescues and rescuing grotesque fat bodies from houses, rescuing livestock from slurry pits etc etc.

to top that off they also get no extra money for being the driver in charge of a machine even though bin men do.....& then like you say get shafted on the pension which they have paid extra via every pay packet to get.

All services, emergency and millitary get shafted because they are the face of the people...the normal people with normal jobs doing extraordinary things and brave things....the people that others in communities could look up to and be proud of, they scare the rich and the politicians and they are the last people that the politicians would like to gain any power and are exactly the type of people that should be running the country in their place......that is why they are brow beaten and demonised and that is why we are duped into fighting amongst ourselves and that is why we hear nothing of the unjustified benefits of many civil servants quietly weaselling away large amounts of dosh for doing foc all and sat on their arses.....I haven't forgotten how it was actually the Sun newspaper that started to force the government into actually honouring the military more than the bare minimum when they introduced the help for heroes campaign.....before that the there was barely any recognition and they had the public firmly against the military as people for doing the things that the country ordered them to do...absolutely disgraceful.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

While fire men do an excellent job it is not exactly rocket science. I am not demeaning the job all you need do to put out a fire is remove oxygen, by either water, foam, dry powder or an inert gas.

& fires are just a small part of what firefighters do....the Rescue side of it is more pertinent.......Cutting people out of vehicles, dealing with hazardous chemicals, Flood rescues and rescuing grotesque fat bodies from houses, rescuing livestock from slurry pits etc etc.

As Noggy says Lew.  And rescue means getting the casualty out alive of all sorts of situations.  Hopefully none of us will find ourselves in that situation where our life is solely in the hands of the firemen, but if you do I think you'll want highly skilled, motivated caring men and women come to your rescue, not some cut price, profit first minimum wage just try and put out the fire outfit.  Fire Service personnel are worth every penny they are paid, and yes should be paid more than they currently are.

Working in a power station over the years I've had my fair share of fire fighting, damage control and casualty  rescue training.  Yes it's a lot more than just putting out fires.  And of course when you are putting out fires you are trying to bring a situation that is potentially totally and utterly out of control back under control.  Fires are unpredictable, you never know what's gonna happen. 

[fazersharp]

Its the services that have stood up to complain about their pay that have seen their "perks" looked closer at that have then had them removed in return for extra pay. maybe the police are a little bit more cleaver and realize they are onto a good thing and so keep their gobs shut as they don't want any practices or perks looked into.

[Dave48]

One of my 2 sons is a fireman and he is physically very fit (31 years old). But even he can see that not all current firefighters will retain their present fitness levels over the years ahead & for some lard arse politician to dictate that they should work to some daft retirement age-how many 55-60 year olds could climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious?
If people got paid what theyre worth we would probably see Cameron & co down the local job centre.
Servicemen,Nurses,Teachers,Ambulance crews,Firemen & police are essential workers and this should be recognised in their employment packages.
And im not going to start ranting about "celebrity" pay scales-I include footballers in this.
I blame Thatcherism for kick-starting the "what can I grab -regardless of how it affects you or me" attitude that prevails today-so the politicians & bankers have much in common.

[fazersharp]

I get the point about firepersons not being fit enough at 55-60 but instead of retiring at whatever they do now surly there must be something else they can do within the fire service. and the "climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious" argument is always used and I actually agree with it but not all fire personal at the fire will need to go up the ladder - just send the young uns up while they hold the bottom.
At 59 if they are not fit enough they could train/teach others - do all the community fire safety awareness stuff I would of thought there is loads they could still do.