The Jock vote

[richfzs]

I fear this has less to do with independence and more to do with certain politicians carving out an empire for themselves and getting rich in the process.

So are we to understand that he will continue the campaign regardless of the decision made by the Scotish people until he gets independence and most importantly, his own way.

From what I see, it's all about Salmond, absolutely. There are plenty of Scots folk genuinely want independence for its own sake, and that's fine - but for Salmond, it's about him him him. His style of politics is (has always been), when he doesn't like what someone tells him, he just ignores them until they go away (or don't go away, he doesn't seem to much care) - pretty much in the grand tradition of African dictators.

How can people vote yes if they do not know what they are actually saying yes to? seems half baked to me.

Yep, this too. "We'll work out the details later". I worry that they're not going to like the details - Salmond is going to find that the EU wont just roll over and give him what he wants, he'll be playing on a much bigger stage than he's used to, and he's just not a big enough politician for that. Grim times ahead, in the event of a yes vote (not that that isn't true if the vote is no!).

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Sorry Nick I was of course talking in general terms and of course tongue in cheek.  But on a serious note why are the Queen's honours entitled things like Order of The British Empire.  Now I'm never gonna be offered one, but that is not a title I would wish to have bestowed upon me, nae thanks tae that.

How can people vote yes if they do not know what they are actually saying yes to?

What we will say YES to on Thursday is to have a government of our own choosing, to have policies put in place that we have voted for, rather than have a Tory government imposed upon us, a millionaires cabinet of Eton Bullingdon boys - the Westminster elite.  Labour?  New Labour = New Tories.

I think a lot of people in the rest of the UK don't understand how we got to this point.  A quick history lesson - For decades Westminster has been worried about the rise of nationalists in Scotland, particularly as Scotland struck it rich with North Sea Oil.  In 1997 they gave us The Scottish Parliament, giving us day to day control of a number of key areas ie devolution of select powers.  This parliament was designed to solve the Nationalist issue forever.  It was designed so that it was impossible for any one party to hold an overall majority.  A proportional representation parliament that delivered coalition government (you know the kind of government that the UK didn't believe in anyway but good enough for the Scots).  The nationalists policy is take what you can get when you can get it, so Scotland voted for it.  Naturally Labour, the party of Scotland came to power supported by the Lid Dems. And that should have been that - the Nationalists tied up for ever and a day - problem solved.   But Labour then took it's orders from London.  Time and time again The Scottish Labour Party caved into the big boys at Westminster and Scots didn't get the polices that Scottish Labour promised.   And it wasn't long before everybody could see that London called the shots. So this time it wasn't just the Nats telling London to piss off, it was all the Labour voters too.  So what happened?  The Scots eventually did what was supposed to be impossible, they voted in an SNP majority in a coalition parliament.  What's always in an SNP manifesto?  Yup a referendum on independence!  But that's not within our powers.  But considering what had just happened to Labour up here, London had no choice but to grant it.

 

So are we to understand that he will continue the campaign regardless of the decision made by the Scotish people until he gets independence and most importantly, his own way.

Not quite.  Yes he will.  But I'm not a member of the SNP, I voted Labour at the last general election.  This is not about Alex Salmond, it's not what Alex wants, it's about democracy, what people in Scotland want.  I've wanted it for over 20 years, I want it on Thursday, I'll always want it.  I do not want to be ruled over by an English Tory elite for one second more than I have to.

I think if it's YES on Thursday, something else will happen.  A lot of people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland will wake up on Friday morning and think - fucks sake look at what the Scots have just gone and done, they've rid themselves of the those scum bag fucking Tories bastards.  You might start thinking - we can do it too.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

From what I see, it's all about Salmond, absolutely.

That's what the English press want you to believe.

That's what the Tory party wants you to believe.

That's what New Labour wants you to believe.

That's what Better Together wants you to believe.

I've got a letter here from the Labour Party.  It's addressed to me.  It says;

Dear Gareth - If you don't know - vote NO!  (condescending fuck wits - I mean fuck right off)

The name Alex Salmond in one short letter is spelt out 11 times.

So is it any surprised richfzs, from what you see, that you think this is all about Alex Salmond?

On Thursday there is a referendum on Scottish Independence.  It's not about the SNP, it's not about Alex Salmond, it's not a popularity rating or approval poll, it's asking people in Scotland, do you want Tory rule from Westminster, or do you want to elect your own government.


Oh yes Richfzs from what you see it's all about Alex Salmond.  I do understand that.

[darrsi]

http://bcove.me/r08toop4

[richfzs]

Nah Andy, you misinterpret (and probably, I didn't phrase very well). As I said, there are plenty of Scots folk want independence for it's own sake - and I can understand that. I live in Newcastle, and feel more kinship with Edinburgh than I do London.


I mean, for Salmond, its all about him, and what he can do to further himself. I know 2 people pretty well, who are ardent Yes voters (one in Dunfermline, the other in Larbert), and both are of the opinion that they'll use Salmond to get their independence, and then at the next election, kick the slimy toe-rag into touch.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

I mean, for Salmond, its all about him, and what he can do to further himself.

I don't think so.  I don't buy into that at all.    No he's not a Tommy Sheridan or a George Galloway, he's not some egotistical maniac.  Nor is he elitist or seek the limelight.  He's not interested in celebrity, just doing his job.

You know the whole might of the UK media have been trying to shoot this fox for over two decades now.  That's two decades of full on media abuse, two decades of scratching around try to destroy one man.  You don't survive that unless you have some real integrity. 

My prediction would be post YES vote, Wee Eck will lead the negotiations.  He'll then stand down.  Wee Nikki will then lead the SNP.

Of course the SNP will have a heck of a job holding itself together post YES.  Many a matter of conscience has been put aside, many a compromise, in order to move forward together and deliver this referendum.

The kind of people that are in the SNP, they do have discipline, incredible discipline, but such matters of conscience will only lie low for so long.

[richfzs]

Well, maybe - you're naturally closer to it than I am.


I still get the feeling though, that if the vote is Yes, it will be despite Salmond, not because of him. Of course, politics should be about the policies not the people - but sadly that's not how the reality is, born out in your leaflet mentioning Salmond 11 times. I don't like him, but then I don't like Sturgeon either (or Cameron, or Miliband). Guess I just don't like politicians 

[lew600fazer]

If the vote is NO this issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for another 50 years and that directive should come from the democrtically elected government of the UK. The money this has cost is just stupid the effect on the GBP in the markets is proof how unsettling this issue is.

I am surprised the Queen has not weighed into this debate, after all she is the one person most people hold in high regard.

[Tmation]

Salmond and Sturgeon, this whole things seems a bit fishy to me 


Whatever happens, there will be millions of people unhappy on Friday morning as the vote is 50/50 by most polls.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

If the vote is NO this issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for another 50 years and that directive should come from the democrtically elected government of the UK.

Presumably you are taking the piss, but I'll bite anyway

If you believe in democracy then it's up to the people. 

YES or NO, I think politics will be different after Thursday.

[Hedgetrimmer]

YES or NO, I think politics will be different after Thursday.

Sad to say, after a honeymoon period, I doubt it 

[Stupid Luke]

YES or NO, I think politics will be different after Thursday.

Sad to say, after a honeymoon period, I doubt it 

I agree with Lew. Regardless of outcome the Scots should be taxed for the cost of this referendum and the campaigns it entails. Why should the English payer higher taxes for a bunch of ingrates?

[goldfazer]

My prediction - No will get 53 or 54%. Might even pop down the bookies

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 

My prediction - No will get 53 or 54%. Might even pop down the bookies

Thing is, NO needs 60% plus to bury YES for a while.

YES needs 51% to bury NO for good.   




 

[richfzs]

Ah, the old "keep asking the question till they you the right answer", eh?

Not disagreeing, you're spot on - but even salmond said today, this is it, he won't be asking again, if it turns out a no.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Not disagreeing, you're spot on - but even salmond said today, this is it, he won't be asking again, if it turns out a no.

He says "In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity for Scotland"

He could well be right, and I think that's what he has to say.  But at the end of the day it's up to the Scottish people.

If it's NO, then Westminster needs to do some quick thinking, otherwise 12 months down the line NO voters might think, wait a minute - we focced this up - and lo and behold before you know your heading towards another Indy ref.

Look I'm not a nationalist for sake of being a nationalist.  I don't do kilts and all that shite, no thanks tae that pish, I'm no walking aboot wi rose tinted spec on aw the time and I didnae hate the English, no one bit,  I'm just fed up with the neo liberal privatise everything agenda we've been following since 1979 and the election of that bitch. 

There's a general election next year in the UK.  There is a choice o three parties and they are all the same, it's Tory, Tory or Tory, some say there's a forth option, Nigel and his ultra Tories.  No Thanks, you know what I mean.  That's where Scotlands coming from.

[Hedgetrimmer]

There's a general election next year in the UK.  There is a choice o three parties and they are all the same, it's Tory, Tory or Tory, some say there's a forth option, Nigel and his ultra Tories.  No Thanks, you know what I mean.  That's where Scotlands coming from.

But anywhere you go in the world, people are fed up with their politicians. What makes you think Scotland would be any different Andy?

[lew600fazer]

VNA , When I read some of the posts as in, Stupid Luke  his, comment (INGRATES) fecking hell glad he is not on a podium gobbing of about the NO vote. I know he has to be taking the piss here and trying to get a rise out of muppets like me.

I personally believe Scotland should stay in the Union. Fight for a better deal within the Westminster Parliment. When the next election comes along and the elected government have to rely on a bit of a leg up because they do not have a clear mandate to do what they like. Scottish MP's can extract their pound of flesh as in we will back you? but what is in it for Scotland.
For years the Unionsts did this to Tory governments when they where one short of a full house.

[esetest]

with the polls being so close, the undecided could well vote yes due to the threats coming from westminster and the media .

[lew600fazer]

It will never be a yes vote,why because the 16 year olds will be that busy playing on their x boxes etc!! the poles will have closed. 

[Razgruff]

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups


Independence for Shetland


Would have loved to see the results of this,
I wonder why the SNP Gov didn't support it lol

5 August 2014: The Committee agreed to close the petition under Rule 15.7 on the basis that that the Scottish Government has indicated that it does not support what the petition seeks

[lew600fazer]

If the vote is NO this issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for another 50 years and that directive should come from the democrtically elected government of the UK.

Presumably you are taking the piss, but I'll bite anyway

If you believe in democracy then it's up to the people. 

YES or NO, I think politics will be different after Thursday.

No I am not taking the piss and yes I do believe in democracy.

In one of your posts you said the NO vote needs 60% to make this go away (for a while)
The YES vote needs 51% . Explain to me how that is democratic, why is it not a done deal if the NO vote gets 51%.

To be honest the way the whole voting process over this issue is being run and organised it is like something from a Banana Republic.

Lowering the voting age to 16, what was wrong with keeping it at 18, not all Scots are allowed to vote, requirement was you have to live in Scotland to qualify or maintain a home there. I can accept that to a certain extent, but what if you are working abroad for a few years and have every intention of returning to live tehere again.
If you are any other nationality and live in Scotland you get to vote(assume they will be on the electoral roll)

Why should some Polish or Romainian have a vote

[hightower]

If it is a yes vote, I propose England should also monitor its borders. It can let any Scot in EXCEPT for Frankie Boyle. Hell, I'd support Scotland's cause if that was one of the stipulations of a yes vote.

[Farjo]

"three separate referenda in Shetland, Orkney, and the Western Isles" Well that's just poor English, no wonder they closed it.

Will an independent Scotland be allowed to keep the English language? Will they be seeking a representative on the Oxford English Dictionary committee?


But back to Locksmith's original question, how will an IndScot affect him...
There's dire predictions that independent Scotland would go into a depression, which would mean much economic migration from Scotland to SE England - more overcrowding, higher prices, etc. Of course that's only if you believe the predictions.

If Scots vote Yes and are no longer part of the EU (you have to believe that one too) then Dave could kick the Scots out of England and meet his "Net migration back to the tens of thousands" promise. I wonder how many Scots there are in London, compared with eastern Europeans?

There's also been comment that after a Yes result the UK's place in the world will be diminished (can't see why losing 5 million people would do that mind). So if there's a Yes vote and Dave wins in May then his renegotiation of our relationship with the EU would be from a weaker position and he would be able to get fewer and weaker changes. The people that Dave will be negotiating with will no doubt have seen how he has caved in under pressure during this campaign and will likely give up less during any EU renegotiations. Therefore he would be less likely to persuade the voters to remain in the EU come 2017.

There was some comment that a successful No campaign would see Alistair Darling appointed as Shadow Chancellor, replacing Ed Balls. Well he's probably cocked that one up already but a Yes vote will definitely see Balls staying. Given that Labour seem likely to win in May a Yes vote means Ed Balls for Chancellor of the Exchequer for us.

And a Yes vote would mean protracted negotiations between Scotland and the rest of the UK. This would naturally take a lot of politicians' time so they would be less involved day-to-day affairs. Whether you think this is a good or bad thing is of course your own opinion.

[lew600fazer]

 I will just advise those that think Scotland will be better off as an independent nation. Just look at the last part of the UK that became independent

The IRISH REPUBLIC, on the bones of it's arse and only within the last couple of years had to be given a financial lifeline by, guess who, the UK.

Some may say what about the Celtic Tiger their economy was one of the strongest in Europe until the crash. Well we all know now it was built on the lies of bankers etc!!
If you need to go and see a doctor in the Republic you had better have private healthcare in place, NHS in the Republic is practically non existant

Blah Blah we have Scottish oil, bullshit BP and the Oil Majors own and will control that oil.