[SOLVED] Diagnose my starter problem please

[keratos]

When I press the engine start start I  hear a click but no turnover. A few presses and then the engine spins and ignition, fine. The number of presses required is random. This only started happening this morning.
 
What happens:
1. I notice the Datatool DiGi does not illuminate - it used to.
2. Battery light on instrument panel does not illuminate - should it?
3. Neutral light illuminates.
4. Headlights, Rear lights, and signals work.
5. Once started the engine runs fine.
6. Horn works fine.
7. Spark plugs recently fitted - a week ago.
8. No fuses blown
 
???

[richfzs]

Just one click, or multiple? If multiple, check your battery connections are good and tight.

[darrsi]

Does sound like a low battery issue to me, i'd be inclined to try giving it a good charge.
And if you've got a meter see what it reads when switched off (and when running) and see if it's within the acceptable limits.

[richfzs]

It's not a battery charge issue - if it were that, it wouldn't suddenly decide to wake up and spin the motor ok

[Paulfzs]

sounds like you have a defective brush, the first few clicks just moves it out of the way enough for it to make a full spin thus starting it.

[keratos]

It is not a battery issue; Amps and Volts are fine and the lights are fine. The engine wouldnt fire up or turn if the battery were dud. But I'm unsure how to test further so I have downloaded the manuals from the Download section (cheers foccers)
 
I will test tonight but to answer some questions back to me (thanks)...
 
1. One click each time I press the starter
2. Random number of clicks needed to fire up, but usually no more than 5 (although it was 1 or 2 this morning)
 
Leaning toward a starter motor issue; haynes manual has breakdown of tests and components in the motor but is it not simpler to change the whole motor? Neither Haynes nor Yam manuals are clear as to where the starter motor is and how to remove it. any diags anyone?
 
thanks

[Fazerider]

Neither Haynes nor Yam manuals are clear as to where the starter motor is and how to remove it. any diags anyone?

It's the black cylindrical thing bolted to the top of the gearbox just behind the cylinders. Access from the left, only two bolts to undo and it'll slide out once you've given it a thump from the rhs to loosen it.

[Paulfzs]

when you go to start it, hit the starter motor with a RUBBER mallet, not metal youll break it and not too hard but a decent wack, if it starts then new motor/brushes needed.

changing or fixing depends on if you can get hold of one for cheap or replace the brushes which it will likely be


brushes: http://yambits.co.uk/fzs600-fazer-starter-motor-brush-p-45752.html

as above, cylindrical item above the gearbox

[darrsi]

Plenty of motors on Ebay if needed for 30 odd quid.

[clayt74]

I would start with the simplistic thing first and ensure that the contacts in the starter button are clean n corrosion free?

[Ebme Geek]

Check you are getting 12 volts on the terminal on the starter motor, if you are not but the relay is clicking, it's either the relay or a bad connection, if you are getting 12v then there is no point looking further back, it's the motor
 
If its the motor,
 Might be worth checking that the brushes are not sticking, one of mine was and I think a clean would have sorted it, but I had already got the kit from bay-of-E     Link to my old post    http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6858.msg65689.html#msg65689

[keratos]

Rite,. Here is the so far....

Hotwire starter trrminal to battery, motor turns fine

Hotwire to starter relay output, fine

Check run switch continuity , fine. But I could always hear the relay click when I switch on the run switch

Still clicks when using starter switch...

Check continuity of starter relay when switch pressed, fine

Check voltage across starter relay, fine

Check loom at starter relay, fine, power and continuity ok

Check starter cutoff relay according to manual using multimeter connected to various terminals of the relay, fine

Check loom connector to starter cutoff relay according to manual, fine

Clicks.  Arggggg

Check neutral switch continuity, OK

Click . grrrrrrrr

Take off all loom connectors in start circuit and spray with contact cleaner... Lots. Let drip n dry. Spray all relay terminals too.

press start switch and expect click, but,...START, TURN, IGNITION FIRE. Running, so far....VOILA

Problem was always  intermittent but got worse to the point that 9 out of 10 starts failed. so i will leave and run for a few days and report back... I know it's just going to come back though!!

Only thing I didn't check was main switch but I get all instruments and relays on so this must be fine

[keratos]

I would start with the simplistic thing first and ensure that the contacts in the starter button are clean n corrosion free?

Now if I had done this first I could have saved time, money (I went and bought a multimeter at £60) and enjoyed a rideout in the late afternoon sunshine.
good advice from you

[keratos]

when you go to start it, hit the starter motor with a RUBBER mallet, not metal youll break it and not too hard but a decent wack, if it starts then new motor/brushes needed.

......

thanks for this, alas 'twas not the brushes as the motor spins fine when hotwired to the battery (using a jump lead of course!!)

[unfazed]

Change the starter relay

[keratos]

Change the starter relay

read above

[keratos]

Still going good. Maybe it was the contacts/looms dirty after all

[keratos]

Done it again. Damm it. Just click of the start relay but no motor action

I've tested the motor via hotwire and starter plus cutout  relays according to the shop manual

Neutral switch is fine as the mutual neutral light comes on. Handlebar run switch is fine as I can hear the starter relay power but not activate until I press the start switch then I hear clunks but no motor. I've tested the sidestsnd switch. Sometimes if I just holds the start switch then after 5,10,30 seconds the starter motor comes alive.

Trouble is that the problem is highly intermittent. So when I'm testing it could be when the problem is not manifesting so I'm getting a false positive.
What the hell is it?

[Fazerider]

How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.

[keratos]

How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.

I did both. Continuity and volts. All OK. The meter is a ut71 , £150.
You forgot to mention the starter cut off relay. I tested this too but it's a complicated box so often the best way is to swap it out and see. I may do this. It's definitive not the starter relay or the motor or the main switch or the run switch or the neutral switch. I can't think what else it might be

[Fazerider]

How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.

I did both. Continuity and volts. All OK. The meter is a ut71 , £150.
You forgot to mention the starter cut off relay. I tested this too but it's a complicated box so often the best way is to swap it out and see. I may do this. It's definitive not the starter relay or the motor or the main switch or the run switch or the neutral switch. I can't think what else it might be

If the starter relay goes click when you press the button the cutout relay is fine, that's why I didn't mention it.
So what voltage did you get on the output of the starter relay? (Measured with the starter etc. in circuit.)

[unfazed]

I repeat change the starter relay.

[keratos]

To answer questions...I have retested the starter relay

When I press start I get continuity across the high amp terminals. I get a voltage of 11.89v and sometimes less. On each occasion the motor turned. When it failed to turn the voltage was the same. The battery voltage is 12.8v.
I just don't see how it can be the starter relay when all readings are identical when the motor turns, and when it does not??

Also... On the odd occasion it didn't turn the starter, I held start down and like magic after a delay of 10 second, it started. Like weird

[unfazed]

What you most likely have is copper corrosion or burning of the 30 amp contacts within the the Starter relay itself creating high resistance in the circuit. It gives exactly the symptoms you describe.

Measuring the voltage across it is not an effective test, you would need to check the current flow and since that can be 30 amps no ordinary meter could be used to test it.
You could try testing the resistance across the contacts by disconnecting the two large cables to the battery and starter motor.
Connect the test leads to those connection on the relay, set meter to Ohms, if reading is above zero when starter button is pressed, change the relay.

You can buy a brand new starter relay for £20.

[Fazerider]

You are correct, if the voltage between the starter relay output and the negative terminal of the battery is 11.89v and the starter motor doesn't turn, that tells you that the relay is not the problem.
So you have poor continuity between the relay and starter.
There are other possibilities: poor grounding of the engine or the starter itself needing a clean and new brushes, but if the thing spins reliably when you put a jump lead to it that makes these less likely.


Unfazed: sorry to disagree with you, but the voltage measurement is very useful. You can't have a 12v output from the relay with the motor not turning and blame the relay!