Advice on front &Rear caliphers

[AyJay]

As with everything, it doesn't hurt to check the bike over afterwards and there are poor dealers out there, as we all know. Even the best dealers can hire someone who's a bit flakey and only they will know what's gone on. It might just have been a very busy day and careless mechanic. Many years ago, I had one mechanic who managed to leave two pinch bolts off the yokes on my Fazer and it was just one of those things. He was excellent except for that one (drastic) mistake, and it was he who owned up and called me a couple of hours after I'd picked the bike up. I used him several times after that because he owned up to the mistake.


I am not a dealer, I don't work in the trade and none of my friends are mechanics, before anyone thinks I'm defending the indefensible! However, my one tip is try and talk to the mechanics working on your bike. If you strike up a personal relationship, it's much more likely they'll take a bit of extra care because you're not just a customer, you're a bloke they know. Some of the bigger dealers will not let you talk to them and that's the point I walk.


As for Loctite-ing caliper bolts, I just had the pleasure of a £150 bill for drilling a caliper hex bolt out of the fork leg on my ZZR because the previous owner had Locitite-ed the damn thing in. I asked whether this was recommended by Kawasaki and they said 'of course not', discs, yes, calipers no. I do a lot of miles and my wheels are off and on all the time, the last thing I need is a swiss cheese bolt rounding off every time I replace the tyres.

[lew600fazer]

A Jay perhaps there in lay the problem , we were on first name terms so perhaps familarty breeds contempt. As in it is only Lew.

[AyJay]

Wow. In that case, I'm not surprised you're hopping mad. You deserve a full explanation and a massive apology from these people.

[PaulSmith]

How did I end up being the bad guy here? Lew knew he had lost at least one caliper bolt but didn't know how many he should have had, but tells me I am getting personel for not agreeing that he should lockwire them.  Ask your self Lew, with all your engineering background, if you had lockwired them (which even at the gruelling Manx GP is only recommended not mandatory), would you have checked that they were still wired when you got your bike back from the dealers? You say your dealer claims to have taken the the pads out without removing the calipers from the wheel. Certainly possible to do. But there is no fucking way the new pads would go in until the pistons have been reset. Use your extensive engineering background to work out how your dealer reset the pistons and why this is important to know, then ask your dealer. If your dealer admits to using a screwdriver the lever them against the brake discs, you might ask him when he will be sending you replacements for your now out-of-true discs. 

VNA, you have now done a little googleing looking for reasons to not like loctite, and you found stuff that re-enforces your beliefs. Fair enough, it seems I am not going to persuade you otherwise, which is a pity because it is a handy tool in its place. Having checked the manuals, I am not using it for this application any more, nor will I be recommending it. You however, are still recommending greasing up screws that require torqueing, and that is just not clever as you have already said yourself that it will fuck up torqueing. Pretending that copper grease is not actually grease is both stupid and dangerous. Yes it has copper, and yes you were correct that this reduces the corrision to the aluminium components, but it still has more grease then copper and no, 'just nip em up' is not job done!

And as a general comment, I am sorry, but this bullshit about not everybody having a torque wrench, or them not being accurate, is just that. Bullshit. If you don't have a torque wrench, don't do jobs that need a torque wrench.  It is not like they are expensive when compared to £50+ an hour plus VAT for labour.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

The truth is you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about Paul.

Jesus Christ!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

which even at the gruelling Manx GP is only recommended not mandatory

According to you, and your racing experience, racers don't lock wire brakes.  Wrong again.

If your dealer admits to using a screwdriver the lever them against the brake discs, you might ask him when he will be sending you replacements for your now out-of-true discs. 

Explain why they will be out of true, as you are wrong again.

VNA, you have now done a little googleing looking for reasons to not like loctite,

No I just wondered why you thought it is best practise.  No you are not the only numptie using it on brake calliper screws.  I already knew to be cautious of using it on aluminium threads, on parts that are dismantled on a regular basis, and of course as brake callipers get a good soaking, well it's gonna be copper ease for me to prevent damage from electrochemical processes.

I've never used it on a calliper mount screw and I never will. 

You however, are still recommending greasing up screws that require torqueing, and that is just not clever as you have already said yourself that it will fuck up torqueing. Pretending that copper grease is not actually grease is both stupid and dangerous. Yes it has copper, and yes you were correct that this reduces the corrision to the aluminium components, but it still has more grease then copper and no, 'just nip em up' is not job done!

So yup having got everything wrong, failed on every count you are still trying to maintain that you are correct. 

Read 4 again.  No it's an anti-seize compound not a grease.  Correction factors.

And as a general comment, I am sorry, but this bullshit about not everybody having a torque wrench, or them not being accurate, is just that. Bullshit. If you don't have a torque wrench, don't do jobs that need a torque wrench.  It is not like they are expensive when compared to £50+ an hour plus VAT for labour.

Read 4 again.  The vast majority of the torque wrenches we have at work have no scale marked on them.  There is a range stamped on them.  Do you understand - no scale - no markings, only a range from and to value.  Get it?  Torque wrench analyser - ever heard of such a thing?

it seems I am not going to persuade you otherwise, which is a pity because it is a handy tool in its place. Having checked the manuals, I am not using it for this application any more, nor will I be recommending it.

  That's funny as foc.  What a twat.


I tried to be nice, I really did, but sometimes.......................................

[PaulSmith]

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. OK. Let's see.

You have twice 'corrected' me by saying that copper grease is an anti-sieze and not a grease. Will you please stop pretending that copper grease is anything other then grease with copper in it. Your own words, just above the mystical section 4:

It's copper carried in a grease.

Yes it is an anti-sieze compound, but a big part of what makes it anti-sieze is the grease! You do not grease components that are supposed to be locked in place with torque for the very reason you said yourself

copper ease can render torque settings pointless

. The fact that you have been doing it for twenty years without problems does not make it right, it makes you lucky.

Speaking of section 4, perhaps you could read it again to double check that what you wrote is what you intended to say, because I don't think it says what you seem to think it says.

What I think it says is that "grease fucks up torque settings, but if you are lucky, you can look up the internet and find some adjustment factors that might work, but it doesn't really matter because torque wrenchs are fucking useless anyway, so just do them by hand and take a chance that the job is a good un". Seriously? Is that what you meant to say?

While you are re-reading stuff, you might look for the bit where you think I said racers don't lockwire calipers. I didn't. You will actually find that I acknowledge that they do and that it can be a good idea, but that it was not the norm as any time spent in pit lane will tell you. You found one scrutineers guide that said it was recommended. Not mandatory, but recommened.

As for warping discs, perhaps Lew can answer this one better, given his extensive engineering background, but as far as I can tell, the risk to your discs from replacing worn pads without removing calipers comes by having to apply uneven and unsupported lateral forces between the disk, which is not designed to resist unbalanced forces, and the uncleaned and ungreased (red rubber not copper) pistons, which are also not designed to handle unbalanced forces. Even a small amount of dirt or corrsion on the piston will magnify the forces involved and concentrated in a very small area, significantly increasing the likelyhood of focused distortion, and the chances are that the screwdriver used will be hardened so if anything has to give, it wont be the screwdriver. I suspect that you will now tell us that you have been doing it this way for twenty years and never had a disk go out of true, but be that as it may, perhaps you will tell us why (other then anacdotally) you think I am wrong about this.

So you use dedicated and calibrated tools in your workplace. So what? What is the tolerance of the jobs you use those tools on?  Now what is the tolerance required for DIY motorcycle maintenance and what is the tolerance of shop bought torque wrences. And finally, what is the tolerance you get by adding a dab of grease and then nipping the job up by hand. And you think I am the twat?

As for having really expensive torque wrench analyser, if you actually know what it was and how it worked you would know that you could put one together in few minutes that will calibrate your £30 torque wrench to within 5% with nothing more then a long spanner, a hex key of the same size that fits the torque wrench you want to analyse, a tape measure, a couple of known weights and a bit of string. Lew can tell you how to put them together, or do you think I am wrong again?
 
Another check on loctite will tell you that there is no particular risk with using it on aluminium threads, and at twice a year, replaced every two or three years, I would not consider brake bolts candidates for the title "regularly dismantled". I may be a numptie for not having read the manuals properly, but I shared that honour with yourself and Lew. At least my mistake was a fail to safety one unlike yours, and having read the manuals, I have changed what I do and what I recommend others do. Something you seemed to find funny. How about you? Have you read the manuals yet? I can send you a copy if you want.

[richfzs]

Pass the popcorn...

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Yes it is an anti-sieze compound, but a big part of what makes it anti-sieze is the grease!

Jesus.  No, no, foccing no!  My tin is marked anti-seize assembly compound.  The thing that makes it anti-seize is the copper.  It's the foccing copper stupid.  Go and read up on copper as an anti-seize compound.  Christ!

grease fucks up torque settings

You generally get wet or dry torque figures.  Wet (greased) are considered the more accurate or repeatable.
 
If you use copper ease and the dry torque setting I really don't think you'll do any harm.

because torque wrenchs are fucking useless anyway

Don't be silly now.  Though cheap uns are next to uselss.

As for warping discs,
You can warp motorcycle discs by over heating them.  If you apply a large force to a cold disc, something will give but I don't really see the main disc part warping (anybody?).  eg hit disc with 3 pound hammer and it will shatter.
 

As for having really expensive torque wrench analyser, if you actually know what it was and how it worked you would know that you could put one together in few minutes that will calibrate your £30 torque wrench to within 5% with nothing more then a long spanner, a hex key of the same size that fits the torque wrench you want to analyse, a tape measure, a couple of known weights and a bit of string. Lew can tell you how to put them together, or do you think I am wrong again?

Umm really?  I'll let em ken at work they are wasting their time and money on those norbar torque analysers. 

30 quid torque wrench is unlikely to be repeatable.  In fact ma paws will likely be more accurate and consistent.

Wreck you bike is fail safe - I like it.

Pass the popcorn...

Fuck me I'm done richfzs. 

Paul, yer a fud

[The Male Whale]

My two pennorth as a "dealer" although not franchised.


We always use copper grease when we refit the caliper bolts and we have never had one come loose.


Because, we also torque the correctly with reference to the settings from our specs book which covers nearly every model and with reference to the workshop manual where it doesn't. Our wrenches are not flung about and always wound off after use on the bolt it is set for - keeps them reasonably accurate.


We normally clean the pistons when fitting new pads using brake cleaner and where necessary (very dirty and/or sticking pistons) we will "service" the caliper by using the correct tool to rotate the pistons to clean in situ or, if very bad, by splitting the caliper and removing the pistons with ANOTHER correct tool. We also remove and clean the brass retaining clips (not fitted on the Fazer 1000 Gen 1), clean away the corrosion behind them (a major source of problems) with a wire brush and air line, clean up the retaining pins with a light abrasive wool, and then rebuild these parts with a little copper grease. And new R clips where needed. You should see that servicing a caliper properly is NOT simply a 2 minute job being avoided by a lazy fitter...... Particularly where the meticulous owner has polished the bollocks off the paint work but never once stripped the pads out for a decent clean......


We ALWAYS service/reassemble with red rubber grease for the pistons.


We don't charge for a "clean" but we do advise the customer if a service is required and charge if they want it done. Most do, some don't. To service a caliper properly which is very mucky can take at least 30 minutes per caliper.


Correct me if I am wrong, (I am not - but I know you will be checking the service schedule anyway....) but the service manual does NOT refer to the need to clean or service the caliper as part of ANY of the scheduled service intervals.


We do NOT always remove the caliper during a normal service unless there is a reason to do - replace pads, brake bind felt or reported etc. Don't blame the dealer for not doing what the book says doesn't need to be done.


Most brake problems are down to neglect - we recently rebuilt a "ruined" caliper off a GSXR 1000 that the customer replaced as it was "stuck fast". It took our APPRENTICE an hour to split, strip, clean, replace the seals and rebuild as good as new. Remember, the owner was "throwing this away".


Anyway, rambling!


My point, if you want your brakes serviced, ask for them to be done and ask what they are going to do.


Oh, and we have had to drill out a few bolts that have been thread locked in and then mullared up as hard as they can be - the bolts do not take force through the threads along the fastener (radials excepted - and they often ask for a replacement caliper bolt at each tightening...) but across the bolt. They just need to be tight enough to stop them coming out.


And also a few with no thread lock OR copper grease that have just welded themselves in as described so well by VNA (excellent post by the way...).


Off to bed.


Whale

[richfzs]

Tee hee

[lew600fazer]

Well this thread has certainly proved to be entertaining.  .
Wonder what response I will get when I ask about changing the front sprocket. Only joking I will have a decent manual by then
Paul you mentioned the Haynes Manual, spannering for numpties, I would rather spend the money and get the proper Yamaha workshop manual. Having never met me you did imply that I would to you not be the type of person who could drill the head of a bolt, to me that was you making it personal.
I was annoyed that Marriotts when they were fitting the new pads did not remove and service the callipers or at least advise me that it would be best done as the bike was an unknown quanity to me. Concerning applying pressure between the piston and the discs I would have thought it would have been next to nothing, surely all they would have done was release the bleed screw and eased the piston back. Now that I have plenty of time on my hands I will be doing a lot of servicing and basic maintainence myself.
 
Just on torque setttings again on large marine engines more often than not when tightening or removing say Bottom end bolts Main bearing bolts or Cylinder heads. The method used is that a hydraulic jack would be attached after placing a collar over the nut and stud.Then hydraulic pressure applied and the stud is stretched and the securing nut can then be undone using a small Tommy bar. To ensure the accuracy of the pressure gauge it should be tested on a dead weight tester.
Nothing to do with bikes I know but someone may find that interesting.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Lew,

Your dealer may be saying that they replaced the pads in situ as an excuse.  Seems strange to me that those mounting screws loosened.

Oh no need to release the bleed screw to push the piston back, if you do that it'll just make bleeding the brakes more difficult, just push em back maybe keeping an eye on the master cylinder reservoir.

I'm not gonna say any more about brake servicing.  I'll go with what The Male Whale says whom kens much mare than I aboot bike servicing.

All I'd say Lew is the basic year to year servicing, the stuff that franchised dealers charge you a fortune for and often don't do it right, is pretty straight forward.  I bought a clymer manual (as at the time Haynes were using cheap newsprint type paper for their manuals!).   I get the fork oil changed every second year at my friendly non-franchised dealer, get my tyres there and MOT etc. 

I might get more ambitious now I have a garage.  Just need to decide which sort of bike lift to get.  Hmmm

[PaulSmith]

And you called me stupid? Of course your tin is marked anti-seize if there is anti-seize in your tin, but what exactly is it that you think anti-seize is? In your own words, it is grease with bits in it. Anti-seize can be used anywhere that grease can be used, except where the bits would do more harm then good such as bearings. And anywhere you are putting anti-seize, you are putting GREASE! It is really not that difficult, just try to remember that the bits don't stop the grease from being grease. The bits help prevent seizing from corrosion by offering sacrificial metal to corrode first, but the grease helps just as much if not more by excluding the water and oxygen and by providing lubrication. 

grease fucks up torque settings

You generally get wet or dry torque figures.  Wet (greased) are considered the more accurate or repeatable.
If you use copper ease and the dry torque setting I really don't think you'll do any harm.

You really don't think, do you. You said yourself that grease, or any other lubricant, and anti-seize is grease, fuck up torque settings. So why do you now think that using fucked up torque settings wont do any harm? Is it for the same reason that you don't think it is worth reading the manual to see whether grease, anti-seize, loctite or nothing at all should be used? Is it the same reason you think it is OK to tell others that greasing the bolts and doing them by hand is somehow better then using a torque wrench? In other words, it seems that you don't think, you just do it the way you did it the last time.

When I paraphrased your unsubstantiated claims against cheap torque wrenches, you said I am the one being silly? You have access to the expensive analyser, so use it. Tell us how far out cheap wrenchs are. Personally, I have never had one that read more than 10% off, (that is 36 to 44Nm when looking for 40Nm) but since they are quick and easy to calibrate, it is easy to find out whether they are under or over reading and by how much, and you do not need a special tool to do it.

You never did answer my questions on tolerance or on how you thought your analyser worked, let alone why you think it should be so expensive, so let me give you a little clue. You can even use this to impress your mates and perhaps save your boss some money, if you are not to old to learn, that is. Some people find the concept of a Newton-Meter a little awkward to get their head around at first, google will tell you :

The newton metre is a unit of torque (also called "moment") in the SI system. The symbolic form is N m or N. m. One newton metre, sometimes hyphenated newton-metre, is equal to the torque resulting from a force of one newton applied perpendicularly to a moment arm which is one metre long.

But that does not exactly trip off the tongue. Basically, a Newton is the force required to accelerate a one kilo mass by one meter per second. Gravity on Earth is applying an acceleration of about 9.8 meters per second per second, so a one kilo mass is applying 9.8 Newtons of force to whatever is stopping it from falling. If it is being held up at the end of a horizontal lever, one meter long, then the amount of torque being applied to the other end of that lever is 9.8 Newton meters. See, it is not really that complicated at all.

I know you don't want to talk about servicing brakes anymore, and I can understand why, but you might ask the Male Whale if he usually replaces the pads with the calipers in place, and if he does, does he reset the pistons by levering a screw driver between them and the unsupported disk? I could be wrong, but I suspect he does neither. However, if you think that is an OK thing to do and that it wont damage the disks, then fine, then you need never undo those bolts again so it wont matter how you secure them. However, I am sure you wont be offended if I ask you to stay the fuck away from my bike.

[PaulSmith]

Well this thread has certainly proved to be entertaining.  .

Agreed 

Wonder what response I will get when I ask about changing the front sprocket. Only joking I will have a decent manual by then
Paul you mentioned the Haynes Manual, spannering for numpties, I would rather spend the money and get the proper Yamaha workshop manual.

The trouble with the workshop manual is that it is intended for use in the workshop which can make it very hard going. I would recommend the Haynes manual as it has the advantage of walking you through the job in a way that means you can decide whether or not you want to tackle it yourself. I have the manual for the gen1 in pdf form if you want a look at it, just PM me an address I can send it to. By the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a manual on spannering for numpties. As you can see from this thread, it is when the manual is not used that the real numpties get to shine.

Having never met me you did imply that I would to you not be the type of person who could drill the head of a bolt, to me that was you making it personal.

Yea, sorry about that. It wasn't that I thought you couldn't drill the bolt, it was because you were thinking of drilling the bolt when that had nothing to do with the problem.

I was annoyed that Marriotts when they were fitting the new pads did not remove and service the callipers or at least advise me that it would be best done as the bike was an unknown quanity to me. Concerning applying pressure between the piston and the discs I would have thought it would have been next to nothing, surely all they would have done was release the bleed screw and eased the piston back. Now that I have plenty of time on my hands I will be doing a lot of servicing and basic maintenance myself.

Yes, easing the bleed valve would make re-seating the pistons easier, but a) would would still be applying unbalanced forces between the disk and the piston, and b) you are introducing a real risk of letting air into the system, c) you are trying to solve a problem caused by doing it the wrong way, and d) you are still not doing it the way the manufacturer recommends. 
 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Andy, you argue? You've got the wrong fella  I do miss some of the barneys that went on, on here (Iano, anyone  ), some of these bairns don't have a clue how to argue    Get me, old foccer.

Do you remember Hotdog?

[richfzs]

Hotdog, no, I don't think I do, must have been before my time (or I've killed too many brain cells in the pub)

[VNA - BMW Wank]

I just googled hotdog on the old forum, first up is;

Bring back HotDog, at least he was entertaining, this guy's just a dick. Anyone remember Fazermikai?

I think he's talking about me!

Hotdog appears to be pre 2007.  He got banned.  He was right about everything even when he was wrong.   Absolutely full on.  But the best one was the 2005 Fazer thou he had.  A question about Ivans and K&N stuff and the exhaust.  He said 'what about the CAT?'.  Everybody told him don't be so stupid, he a numpty etc etc - no CAT.  But he was right, 2005 model has a CAT in the link pipe.  For me it was the classic and funniest foc-u barney. 

[richfzs]

Must have passed me by - I think I joined around 2003-4. Shame to have missed it!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Aye must be brain cell damage, too many nights doon the pub right enougth.